猫窝:岛主抄书

电影The Specialist字幕

导演: Eyal Sivan
编剧: Eyal Sivan / Rony Brauman
主演: Adolf Eichmann
类型: 纪录片
制片国家/地区: 法国 / 德国 / Israel / Austria / Belgium
语言: 法语 / 英语 / 德语 / Hebrew
片长: 128分钟
又名: The Specialist: Portrait of a Modern Criminal
IMDb链接: tt0189172

1
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Court rise!

2
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The seventh hearing of the trial
is now open.

3
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The Attorney General will continue
with his opening speech.

4
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Your Honour, here stands before you

5
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the destroyer of a people,

6
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an enemy of mankind.

7
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He was born human

8
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but he lived
like a beast in the jungle.

9
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He committed atrocities

10
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so unspeakable
that he who is guilty of such crimes

11
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no longer deserves
being called human.

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His crimes go beyond
what we consider human,

13
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they go beyond what separates

14
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man from beast.

15
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I ask the Court to consider…

16
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that he acted with enthusiasm…

17
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out of his own free will…

18
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and with passion.

19
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Right to the end!

20
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I therefore ask you

21
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to sentence this man to death.

22
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– Remove that man…
– Butcher!

23
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Butcher!

24
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Order…

25
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Remain seated!

26
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If you want to stay, sit down

27
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otherwise this hearing
cannot continue.

28
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If not, it will be adjourned!

29
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Anyone who is unable
to endure this should leave.

30
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Mr. Bar Or, please continue.

31
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– Did you meet Eichmann?
– Yes.

32
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More than once?

33
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Yes, yes.

34
00:07:06,292 –> 00:07:08,283
What did you talk about

35
00:07:08,628 –> 00:07:10,755
when you met Eichmann?

36
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What were the topics?
What did he want to know?

37
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All sorts of things.

38
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I was part of a delegation
to the Reich.

39
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My task was to organise
the Pioneers.

40
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I happened to be in charge

41
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of the Fund
for Israel’s Development.

42
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What happened?

43
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I was told that he’d be there,

44
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and since I thought
that he was someone

45
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capable of listening
to our grievances…

46
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well, that it seemed
as if he would understand

47
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our situation,

48
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in these meetings

49
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I informed him

50
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of our demands and grievances.

51
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And from time to time he…

52
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– He did something…
– He did…

53
00:08:02,281 –> 00:08:04,442
But… to be more precise

54
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he almost always said:

55
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<i>”I must ask</i>

56
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<i>my superiors. “</i>

57
00:08:10,723 –> 00:08:13,954
But in general, it was possible

58
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to reach an understanding.

59
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It seemed to me

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as if he wanted to understand
everything in detail.

61
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And…

62
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obviously…

63
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we all know that the issues

64
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concerning the Jews are not…

65
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…that simple.

66
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A lot of things
were difficult to explain,

67
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even amongst ourselves…

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I don’t want to say…

69
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any more about it.

70
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And he asked me
to explain things to him.

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And what was his behaviour like?

72
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At the time
I thought he seemed composed,

73
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that he behaved normally.

74
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Of course, there was nothing
personal in our relations.

75
00:09:02,174 –> 00:09:04,301
They were cold and factual,

76
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but properly conducted.

77
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The meetings
were properly conducted?

78
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– Entirely so!
– Yes, yes, yes…

79
00:09:09,715 –> 00:09:11,683
He addressed me as “Herr”,

80
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he asked me to sit down…

81
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You see?

82
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What did you think of his interest?

83
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What I think of any official
when he says:

84
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<i>”Explain this to me</i>
<i>so that I can understand. “</i>

85
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– Thank you.
– Dr Servatius?

86
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No questions to the witness.

87
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You have concludeed your testimony.

88
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Now,

89
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with the permission of the Court
I will submit

90
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document 1137.

91
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Under point 5:

92
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Lieutenant-colonel Eichmann declares

93
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that he was put in charge

94
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of the Central Office
for Jewish Emigration

95
00:10:02,334 –> 00:10:04,564
and that he definetely decided

96
00:10:04,804 –> 00:10:08,103
to let the offices in Berlin,
Vienna and Prague function…

97
00:10:08,340 –> 00:10:10,808
Mr. Bar Or, please refrain
from quoting too much.

98
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Very well, your Honour…

99
00:10:13,412 –> 00:10:15,505
…to let them function separately.

100
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He announced that he would
divide his time as follows:

101
00:10:21,320 –> 00:10:23,379
Two weeks per month in Berlin

102
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and two weeks
per month divided between

103
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Vienna,

104
00:10:27,893 –> 00:10:28,518
Prague

105
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and the General Government
in Poland.

106
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– Where does it say this?
– Under 13.

107
00:10:37,102 –> 00:10:39,900
– Yes, your Honour, under 13.
– Thank you.

108
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– This is reference T/798.
– Thank you, your Honour.

109
00:10:44,743 –> 00:10:46,233
Yes, Mr. Hausner.

110
00:10:50,883 –> 00:10:54,842
You stated that your work
in Austria…

111
00:10:55,988 –> 00:11:00,118
was the one which gave you
most satisfaction

112
00:11:00,459 –> 00:11:02,620
and allowed you to savour
the joys of creativity.

113
00:11:03,395 –> 00:11:04,555
Is this correct?

114
00:11:05,197 –> 00:11:06,630
Yes, it is correct.

115
00:11:08,734 –> 00:11:10,292
Would you confirm

116
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that in practice
your task in Austria

117
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was to expel the Jews?

118
00:11:20,946 –> 00:11:21,913
It was…

119
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a regulated, planned emigration.

120
00:11:25,484 –> 00:11:27,748
And I regret that this principle

121
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was not maintained throughout
the war until it was over.

122
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Is it correct that you stated

123
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on page 736

124
00:11:38,330 –> 00:11:40,798
that it was a forced emigration?

125
00:11:43,836 –> 00:11:47,738
Forced emigration meant
accelerated emigration, yes.

126
00:11:48,540 –> 00:11:52,943
In which the Jews were forced to
leave everything they owned behind?

127
00:11:53,178 –> 00:11:54,145
Correct?

128
00:11:55,648 –> 00:11:57,912
That is correct,
but it isn’t my fault.

129
00:11:58,784 –> 00:12:02,345
Is it true to say that not a penny
was ever returned to the Jews?

130
00:12:02,655 –> 00:12:03,417
Correct?

131
00:12:06,358 –> 00:12:08,519
That is unfortunate,
but it’s not my fault.

132
00:12:08,827 –> 00:12:11,455
For all that concerned…

133
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the organisation
of this forced emigration

134
00:12:14,433 –> 00:12:16,162
in the eyes of your superiors
you were considered

135
00:12:16,435 –> 00:12:18,232
a qualified specialist?

136
00:12:21,240 –> 00:12:24,403
Yes. Emigration
is a very complicated affair,

137
00:12:24,643 –> 00:12:28,636
one must have a good grasp of it
if results are to be achieved.

138
00:12:28,881 –> 00:12:30,143
And the Jews too…

139
00:12:30,382 –> 00:12:33,545
It’s all right,
I understood the answer.

140
00:12:35,921 –> 00:12:39,084
Is this how you came to be called

141
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“the specialist”?

142
00:12:43,862 –> 00:12:46,592
Yes, I acquired a certain expertise.

143
00:12:47,599 –> 00:12:48,623
Dr Servatius,

144
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please proceed.

145
00:12:56,809 –> 00:12:58,640
The following document is T/37.

146
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296,

147
00:13:02,448 –> 00:13:04,780
document 1167.

148
00:13:06,652 –> 00:13:10,088
Another personal report undated.

149
00:13:11,090 –> 00:13:16,050
It acknowledges your abilities
as an independent administrator

150
00:13:16,428 –> 00:13:19,056
and defines you
as a qualified specialist.

151
00:13:19,298 –> 00:13:22,825
What exactly are the abilities
referred to here?

152
00:13:23,102 –> 00:13:26,936
Yes, they are the abilities

153
00:13:27,172 –> 00:13:29,697
I acquired in the field

154
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of emigration through experience.

155
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A very complicated field.

156
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I eventually knew

157
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all the regulations
of the countries of immigration

158
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all the sums of money to be declared

159
00:13:43,956 –> 00:13:46,857
all the technical details
relating to passports etc…

160
00:13:47,593 –> 00:13:48,560
…by heart.

161
00:13:48,894 –> 00:13:49,826
And…

162
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yes, I could pass

163
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as specialist in this field.

164
00:13:55,367 –> 00:13:57,767
But in my opinion…

165
00:13:58,303 –> 00:13:59,361
it was a…

166
00:14:00,939 –> 00:14:03,840
quality beneficial to both parties.

167
00:14:04,209 –> 00:14:05,233
– Good.
– I listened to…

168
00:14:05,544 –> 00:14:07,774
the complaints
and the unrelenting demands

169
00:14:08,147 –> 00:14:10,547
for help and assistance

170
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made by the Jewish officials

171
00:14:13,352 –> 00:14:16,685
who had been excluded by law
from the normal spheres of life

172
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and who found themselves
in a very difficult position.

173
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I tried to help

174
00:14:22,428 –> 00:14:23,759
these Jewish officials

175
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and together
we considered solutions.

176
00:14:29,068 –> 00:14:31,332
And it was naturally,
with the sole aim

177
00:14:31,603 –> 00:14:33,798
of helping them, that you acted?

178
00:14:34,807 –> 00:14:37,799
No, as I said,
it was beneficial to both parties.

179
00:14:39,011 –> 00:14:41,912
And I always took account
of the desire

180
00:14:42,181 –> 00:14:44,411
expressed by the Jews themselves

181
00:14:44,683 –> 00:14:47,550
for land of their own,
for their own country.

182
00:14:47,786 –> 00:14:50,186
I totally supported this idea,

183
00:14:50,456 –> 00:14:53,323
and it formed
the basis of my cooperation,

184
00:14:53,592 –> 00:14:55,184
my delighted cooperation,

185
00:14:55,461 –> 00:14:58,521
with the aim of finding
a solution to this problem.

186
00:14:58,831 –> 00:15:02,198
That was my wish
and that was my idea,

187
00:15:02,468 –> 00:15:06,962
to help create a space
where the Jews could live.

188
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All right.

189
00:15:08,707 –> 00:15:11,574
I emphasise that
I was bitterly disappointed

190
00:15:11,844 –> 00:15:15,177
that this project also failed.

191
00:15:16,248 –> 00:15:18,273
So I said to myself:

192
00:15:18,584 –> 00:15:22,179
<i>”What’s the point</i>
<i>in working out my own projects?</i>

193
00:15:22,421 –> 00:15:24,787
<i>”I’m too weak and powerless.</i>

194
00:15:25,290 –> 00:15:30,227
<i>From now on</i> – it was wartime –
<i>I’ll simply obey orders. “</i>

195
00:15:31,196 –> 00:15:33,494
I was a soldier I couldn’t get away.

196
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I tried to get away from it
as has been established.

197
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I had to obey.

198
00:15:40,005 –> 00:15:42,974
I recognised my powerlessness

199
00:15:43,242 –> 00:15:47,872
with regard to my own proposals
or ideas

200
00:15:48,881 –> 00:15:51,509
because they were crushed
by superior forces.

201
00:15:52,451 –> 00:15:55,579
You poor man!
Nothing went as you wanted it to!

202
00:15:56,889 –> 00:15:59,255
– Can we stop here, Mr. Hausner?
– Yes, your Honour.

203
00:16:10,569 –> 00:16:11,729
That’s all for today.

204
00:16:11,970 –> 00:16:15,804
The next hearing
will be on Monday at 8:30 am.

205
00:16:16,108 –> 00:16:17,234
Court rise!

206
00:16:52,011 –> 00:16:53,137
Quiet!

207
00:20:21,220 –> 00:20:23,620
I will ask the question in English.

208
00:21:14,206 –> 00:21:16,640
<i>”Who will pay for all this?”</i>

209
00:21:38,931 –> 00:21:41,661
I had nothing to do
with the Commandos in Poland.

210
00:21:43,135 –> 00:21:45,433
I didn’t carry out such things
because

211
00:21:45,871 –> 00:21:47,395
I was not authorised
or ordered to do so.

212
00:21:47,640 –> 00:21:51,076
In accordance with the new orders
issued by the Reich’s Commissioner

213
00:21:51,344 –> 00:21:52,811
for the Fortification
of German National

214
00:21:53,312 –> 00:21:54,301
and Cutural Identity,

215
00:21:54,547 –> 00:21:57,516
I had to draw up transport plans

216
00:21:57,750 –> 00:21:58,580
in Berlin

217
00:21:58,951 –> 00:22:00,976
in cooperation
with the Ministry of Transport.

218
00:22:01,220 –> 00:22:02,687
This is what my work entailed.

219
00:22:03,723 –> 00:22:07,659
The policy at that time
was very different

220
00:22:07,927 –> 00:22:09,656
from that
at the beginning of the war

221
00:22:09,895 –> 00:22:13,160
but I wasn’t aware of this
until much later.

222
00:22:13,399 –> 00:22:15,162
I had orders.

223
00:22:15,434 –> 00:22:17,368
Whether people were killed or not

224
00:22:17,603 –> 00:22:19,594
orders had to be executed

225
00:22:20,339 –> 00:22:22,204
in accordance
with the administrative procedure.

226
00:22:22,441 –> 00:22:23,772
I was only responsible

227
00:22:24,009 –> 00:22:26,068
for a small part
in these operations.

228
00:22:26,312 –> 00:22:30,544
Other parts necessary
for the departure of a transport

229
00:22:30,783 –> 00:22:33,547
were the responsibility
of various other departments.

230
00:22:34,954 –> 00:22:36,546
This task of yours,

231
00:22:36,989 –> 00:22:39,219
was it accomplished in the end?

232
00:22:39,725 –> 00:22:42,125
You say that
it wasn’t accomplished by you?

233
00:22:45,664 –> 00:22:48,758
A deportation consists
of several stages.

234
00:22:49,001 –> 00:22:51,697
It wasn’t an isolated operation.

235
00:22:52,438 –> 00:22:55,532
Several departments took part in it.

236
00:22:55,775 –> 00:22:57,709
As far as I was responsible

237
00:22:58,277 –> 00:23:01,371
I was naturally obliged
to carry out these tasks.

238
00:23:01,614 –> 00:23:02,444
There we have it!

239
00:23:03,048 –> 00:23:04,845
– But I…
– Please, Mr. Hausner…

240
00:23:05,251 –> 00:23:07,048
I know, your Honour,

241
00:23:07,353 –> 00:23:11,187
but we get to the heart of the matter
and I’m not going to let go now.

242
00:23:11,357 –> 00:23:13,450
But I understand
it’s time for a break.

243
00:23:13,692 –> 00:23:16,855
Yes, it’s time.
But if it is very important…

244
00:23:17,463 –> 00:23:20,159
It is important but I will
come back to it this afternoon.

245
00:23:20,466 –> 00:23:22,593
We’ll interrupt the hearing now.

246
00:23:22,835 –> 00:23:26,134
The hearing will continue at 15:30.

247
00:23:26,372 –> 00:23:27,464
Court rise!

248
00:24:28,167 –> 00:24:29,134
Court rise!

249
00:24:40,546 –> 00:24:42,639
– Yes?
– With the Court’s permission

250
00:24:42,915 –> 00:24:45,349
we will now show the films

251
00:24:45,951 –> 00:24:47,646
we saw yesterday.

252
00:24:47,953 –> 00:24:49,818
Before each sequence

253
00:24:50,055 –> 00:24:53,456
I’ll explain what it is about.

254
00:24:55,861 –> 00:25:00,764
Dr Servatius,
do you have any comments?

255
00:25:04,136 –> 00:25:05,034
Your Honour,

256
00:25:05,271 –> 00:25:09,105
I was informed,
I have no objections.

257
00:25:13,979 –> 00:25:16,038
Very well, let us start.

258
00:25:16,348 –> 00:25:17,645
Lights off, please…

259
00:25:21,921 –> 00:25:23,980
The first images

260
00:25:24,623 –> 00:25:26,090
show the Special Units

261
00:25:26,292 –> 00:25:28,351
executing women and men.

262
00:25:38,571 –> 00:25:42,905
These images are similar to the ones

263
00:25:43,442 –> 00:25:45,376
shown at Nuremberg.

264
00:26:01,627 –> 00:26:04,118
SS Soldiers, female SS members…

265
00:26:07,433 –> 00:26:09,901
Here the contents
of the stores at Auschwitz:

266
00:26:10,235 –> 00:26:13,830
Dentures, spectacles,
personal belongings…

267
00:26:15,774 –> 00:26:16,934
Spectacles…

268
00:26:25,417 –> 00:26:28,648
Piles of corpses
awaiting destruction…

269
00:26:33,459 –> 00:26:35,359
The Court will see barbed wire,

270
00:26:36,161 –> 00:26:37,560
watchtowers

271
00:26:37,963 –> 00:26:39,430
and the electrified fences.

272
00:26:51,210 –> 00:26:52,268
A dead man

273
00:26:53,512 –> 00:26:55,446
on the electrified fence.

274
00:26:56,815 –> 00:26:57,975
A suicide.

275
00:27:07,993 –> 00:27:10,689
Mauthausen, naked people.

276
00:27:18,837 –> 00:27:20,896
I’m sorry that it was necessary

277
00:27:21,273 –> 00:27:23,798
to subject the Court
to such distressing experience.

278
00:27:24,043 –> 00:27:26,034
The showing is finished.

279
00:28:04,116 –> 00:28:06,607
…the train arrived here.

280
00:28:07,986 –> 00:28:09,351
– Mr. Shlomo…
– Yes?

281
00:28:10,856 –> 00:28:12,687
Would you step aside a little?

282
00:28:14,793 –> 00:28:18,354
They opened the wagons
and shouted at us to get out

283
00:28:18,597 –> 00:28:20,030
with all our things.

284
00:28:20,465 –> 00:28:23,366
A lot of people
were killed on the platform

285
00:28:23,602 –> 00:28:25,661
and inside the wagons

286
00:28:25,904 –> 00:28:28,737
because they didn’t get out
fast enough.

287
00:28:29,241 –> 00:28:31,072
We were all herded together here.

288
00:28:31,310 –> 00:28:34,370
They made us run to here

289
00:28:34,613 –> 00:28:35,875
at full speed.

290
00:28:36,214 –> 00:28:37,203
And it was here

291
00:28:37,683 –> 00:28:39,878
that the selection started.
There, on the right…

292
00:28:40,118 –> 00:28:40,675
Yes.

293
00:28:41,720 –> 00:28:44,553
I didn’t want
to be separated from my mother,

294
00:28:44,823 –> 00:28:47,621
but just by the door
I was hit on the head

295
00:28:47,859 –> 00:28:50,054
with a truncheon.

296
00:28:50,495 –> 00:28:51,427
I fell

297
00:28:51,930 –> 00:28:53,454
but I got up again immediately

298
00:28:54,733 –> 00:28:57,167
so I wouldn’t be hit again

299
00:28:57,402 –> 00:28:59,233
but my mother wasn’t there anymore.

300
00:28:59,471 –> 00:29:01,701
Did you see your mother again?

301
00:29:01,940 –> 00:29:03,840
– No, never.
– Never.

302
00:29:08,413 –> 00:29:10,506
Dr Servatius, any questions?

303
00:29:12,351 –> 00:29:14,478
No, no questions.

304
00:29:15,754 –> 00:29:17,085
You concluded your testimony.

305
00:29:35,207 –> 00:29:38,870
We continue with the
cross-examination of the accused.

306
00:29:39,211 –> 00:29:42,544
I remind the accused that
he is still under oath.

307
00:29:47,185 –> 00:29:48,584
Yes, I’m aware of that.

308
00:29:50,155 –> 00:29:51,122
Yes, Mr. Hausner.

309
00:29:53,325 –> 00:29:54,917
I would like to know

310
00:29:55,160 –> 00:29:57,924
if the coordination depended
on a central office

311
00:29:58,096 –> 00:29:59,563
and which one?

312
00:30:06,171 –> 00:30:08,571
Once Himmler ordered the evacuation,

313
00:30:09,741 –> 00:30:12,676
all the authorities
acted on their own initiative

314
00:30:12,911 –> 00:30:14,105
and started deportations

315
00:30:14,546 –> 00:30:16,571
to the territories
of the General Government.

316
00:30:17,616 –> 00:30:21,518
Obviously, this led
to very unpleasant inconveniences.

317
00:30:21,953 –> 00:30:23,887
In order to put a stop to these,

318
00:30:24,156 –> 00:30:27,956
Security Police chief,
Heydrich, intervened.

319
00:30:28,393 –> 00:30:29,690
He created the section

320
00:30:30,662 –> 00:30:33,495
IV/R, later known as IV/D4

321
00:30:35,300 –> 00:30:36,961
of the government office lll/3ES.

322
00:30:37,202 –> 00:30:40,103
The task within this bureau
was to restore order.

323
00:30:41,373 –> 00:30:43,136
My task was

324
00:30:43,375 –> 00:30:45,707
to manage the technical
transport problems,

325
00:30:46,078 –> 00:30:49,411
to make sure that
timetables were adhered to

326
00:30:49,948 –> 00:30:52,109
and the number of deportees
respected.

327
00:30:54,386 –> 00:30:56,354
As far as evacuation was concerned,

328
00:30:57,689 –> 00:31:00,954
it was the local authorities
who had to

329
00:31:01,226 –> 00:31:04,195
provide the trains and wagons

330
00:31:04,429 –> 00:31:06,056
which resulted in tremendous

331
00:31:07,065 –> 00:31:08,259
confusion.

332
00:31:08,567 –> 00:31:10,626
This is why

333
00:31:10,869 –> 00:31:14,965
I was ordered to go to Berlin

334
00:31:15,240 –> 00:31:18,732
so that this newly set up section

335
00:31:18,977 –> 00:31:21,775
should centralise
the management of the transports

336
00:31:22,013 –> 00:31:24,743
centrally from Berlin.

337
00:31:24,983 –> 00:31:27,178
What qualifications did you have

338
00:31:27,419 –> 00:31:29,444
for moving from emigration

339
00:31:29,888 –> 00:31:31,185
to evacuation?

340
00:31:31,423 –> 00:31:33,220
The problems involved
are quite different

341
00:31:33,692 –> 00:31:37,856
from the ones you had to solve
in Vienna or Prague.

342
00:31:44,603 –> 00:31:46,002
Yes, that’s correct.

343
00:31:46,805 –> 00:31:49,273
I had to familiarise myself
with the subject.

344
00:31:49,508 –> 00:31:52,033
I suppose the reason

345
00:31:52,410 –> 00:31:56,005
for my assignment to Berlin

346
00:31:56,448 –> 00:31:59,212
was that Heydrich and Muller

347
00:31:59,451 –> 00:32:03,512
knew I had years of experience

348
00:32:03,755 –> 00:32:06,189
in the field of transport.

349
00:32:07,225 –> 00:32:10,194
And since the evacuation

350
00:32:10,462 –> 00:32:12,293
of the Eastern Provinces

351
00:32:12,497 –> 00:32:13,429
was basically…

352
00:32:15,100 –> 00:32:16,692
a technical question of transport,

353
00:32:17,569 –> 00:32:19,196
I was ordered to Berlin.

354
00:32:19,471 –> 00:32:21,701
This is the only explanation I have.

355
00:32:24,309 –> 00:32:25,799
These transports from the East

356
00:32:26,077 –> 00:32:28,272
were destined for extermination,

357
00:32:28,547 –> 00:32:29,809
weren’t they?

358
00:32:33,151 –> 00:32:34,277
No, that is incorrect!

359
00:32:34,486 –> 00:32:35,680
– It is incorrect?
– That’s incorrect.

360
00:32:35,921 –> 00:32:38,321
Whether they were for extermination
or not, I can’t judge

361
00:32:38,557 –> 00:32:40,422
because nobody knew

362
00:32:40,659 –> 00:32:43,685
whether the transports were destined
for extermination or not.

363
00:32:44,930 –> 00:32:46,329
The bureau in charge

364
00:32:46,865 –> 00:32:49,095
of the timetabling

365
00:32:49,534 –> 00:32:50,364
knew nothing about this.

366
00:32:53,471 –> 00:32:54,733
No, I repeat, no!

367
00:32:54,973 –> 00:32:58,101
I will not allow this
and I don’t want to repeat it.

368
00:33:02,013 –> 00:33:05,141
If necessary I will have
the public removed.

369
00:33:09,087 –> 00:33:10,987
Please continue.

370
00:33:11,590 –> 00:33:13,353
Since there is no objection

371
00:33:13,625 –> 00:33:16,719
to the submission
of Mr. Rajewski’s evidence,

372
00:33:16,962 –> 00:33:19,260
I will now read it out to the Court.

373
00:33:22,167 –> 00:33:23,293
Just a moment…

374
00:33:24,336 –> 00:33:26,395
Would you please proceed…

375
00:33:27,806 –> 00:33:29,706
It’s document T/1356.

376
00:33:30,709 –> 00:33:31,801
That’s 1356.

377
00:33:33,144 –> 00:33:36,375
– It was presented this morning.
– This morning, that’s it, thank you.

378
00:33:36,715 –> 00:33:37,943
1356.

379
00:33:38,650 –> 00:33:42,177
Let us call it T/1356a.

380
00:33:43,388 –> 00:33:45,015
Rajewski testifies

381
00:33:45,824 –> 00:33:47,883
that he was sent to Auschwitz

382
00:33:48,126 –> 00:33:52,028
where he worked
at the registration of prisoners,

383
00:33:52,264 –> 00:33:54,789
i.e. political department.

384
00:33:58,403 –> 00:34:01,133
On page 174,

385
00:34:01,673 –> 00:34:02,765
he states:

386
00:34:06,645 –> 00:34:07,737
<i>”An order was given</i>

387
00:34:08,647 –> 00:34:09,978
<i>”to use rubber stamps</i>

388
00:34:11,783 –> 00:34:14,217
<i>”to stamp the filing-cards</i>

389
00:34:14,653 –> 00:34:16,917
<i>with numerical codes. “</i>

390
00:34:17,422 –> 00:34:20,391
I will present the Court
with the numbering system adopted.

391
00:34:21,192 –> 00:34:24,719
The cards were marked as follows:

392
00:34:26,698 –> 00:34:30,190
<i>”RSH’A, IV/B4a”,</i>

393
00:34:31,836 –> 00:34:33,599
followed by the words:

394
00:34:33,838 –> 00:34:37,399
<i>”Jews from France,</i>
<i>Belgium and Holland.</i>

395
00:34:39,077 –> 00:34:40,772
<i>”IV/B4a,</i>

396
00:34:42,080 –> 00:34:45,641
<i>”2093/42G…</i>

397
00:34:46,918 –> 00:34:48,249
<i>”…/3913.;</i>

398
00:34:49,120 –> 00:34:50,815
<i>”Jews from Germany.</i>

399
00:34:53,858 –> 00:34:59,296
<i>”IV/B4a, 2927/42G…</i>

400
00:35:00,832 –> 00:35:02,561
<i>”…/1148.;</i>

401
00:35:03,301 –> 00:35:05,166
<i>”Jews from Greece.</i>

402
00:35:05,870 –> 00:35:06,962
<i>”IV/B4a,</i>

403
00:35:07,472 –> 00:35:13,707
<i>”3013/42G/1310.;</i>

404
00:35:14,813 –> 00:35:16,644
<i>”Jews from Croatia,</i>

405
00:35:16,915 –> 00:35:20,180
<i>”from the Protectorate</i>
<i>and Theresienstadt,</i>

406
00:35:20,418 –> 00:35:24,479
<i>”Jews from Romania,</i>
<i>from Hungary and Italy.</i>

407
00:35:25,023 –> 00:35:30,222
<i>”IV/B4a, 2093/42G/39.;</i>

408
00:35:31,696 –> 00:35:34,722
<i>”Jews from the G. G.”</i>,
i.e. General Government

409
00:35:35,266 –> 00:35:36,824
<i>”and from Bialystok…</i>

410
00:35:39,771 –> 00:35:41,329
<i>”IV/B4a,</i>

411
00:35:42,440 –> 00:35:48,310
<i>”3666/42G/1505.;</i>

412
00:35:48,880 –> 00:35:50,507
<i>”Polish ‘Aryans.”</i>

413
00:35:51,349 –> 00:35:53,214
I address the accused.

414
00:35:54,786 –> 00:35:57,619
I thought that IV/B4
only dealt with Jews.

415
00:35:58,656 –> 00:36:02,217
Did IV/B4 also deal with Poles,

416
00:36:02,727 –> 00:36:05,958
on the basis
of the organisational chart?

417
00:36:08,500 –> 00:36:09,159
That is correct,

418
00:36:09,334 –> 00:36:12,326
whenever technical questions

419
00:36:12,670 –> 00:36:15,833
of transport such as timetables
were concerned.

420
00:36:16,074 –> 00:36:19,043
This, however, concerned

421
00:36:19,544 –> 00:36:21,774
only limited groups of people:

422
00:36:22,580 –> 00:36:24,172
Gypsies…

423
00:36:25,183 –> 00:36:26,343
Poles…

424
00:36:27,485 –> 00:36:29,544
– Slovenes.
– Slovenes, yes.

425
00:36:32,357 –> 00:36:34,450
And Jews. I think that’s all.

426
00:36:37,896 –> 00:36:40,865
Are you aware that
these deportees suffered

427
00:36:41,800 –> 00:36:43,700
unspeakable miseries?

428
00:36:52,844 –> 00:36:54,471
I know that,

429
00:36:55,246 –> 00:36:57,476
until I took over

430
00:36:57,749 –> 00:37:00,775
the running of the section,

431
00:37:01,186 –> 00:37:05,680
by the way I’ve said this
and the reports say the same,

432
00:37:05,924 –> 00:37:06,822
there…

433
00:37:08,026 –> 00:37:10,017
there was confusion and…

434
00:37:11,262 –> 00:37:14,129
and extreme disorder.

435
00:37:14,732 –> 00:37:18,498
According to the report,
people were often locked up

436
00:37:18,770 –> 00:37:19,828
in the wagons for eight days.

437
00:37:20,605 –> 00:37:21,572
And…

438
00:37:21,840 –> 00:37:23,967
this is the reason why

439
00:37:24,209 –> 00:37:28,009
this section was created in Berlin.

440
00:37:28,480 –> 00:37:29,708
As far as I know,

441
00:37:29,981 –> 00:37:32,245
these things didn’t happen again.

442
00:37:32,484 –> 00:37:35,749
It may be that, due to inadequacies

443
00:37:36,154 –> 00:37:38,714
on the local level,

444
00:37:38,957 –> 00:37:42,324
the occasional unpleasantness
still happened.

445
00:37:42,594 –> 00:37:44,994
But we did our best

446
00:37:45,230 –> 00:37:47,391
to avoid these things.

447
00:37:47,866 –> 00:37:51,529
Once arrangements
had been made for deportations

448
00:37:52,437 –> 00:37:54,268
and once the destination

449
00:37:54,572 –> 00:37:57,769
had been established,
a telex had to be sent

450
00:37:58,076 –> 00:38:00,340
to determine the transport capacity.

451
00:38:01,479 –> 00:38:03,709
Then the number
of deportees was determined.

452
00:38:04,649 –> 00:38:08,415
Following this, the time was set
and then IV/B4 worked out

453
00:38:08,653 –> 00:38:10,553
the timetables.

454
00:38:11,623 –> 00:38:14,057
This can be seen from the documents.

455
00:38:14,292 –> 00:38:17,056
Could we for once speak
without the documents

456
00:38:17,295 –> 00:38:19,593
and appeal to your memory?

457
00:38:19,831 –> 00:38:21,230
Is this impossible?

458
00:38:22,567 –> 00:38:24,467
But I would like to explain…

459
00:38:24,869 –> 00:38:27,736
No, you haven’t understood
the reason

460
00:38:29,073 –> 00:38:30,267
for this interrogation.

461
00:38:30,508 –> 00:38:32,601
You must answer the questions

462
00:38:32,844 –> 00:38:34,675
without arguing,

463
00:38:34,913 –> 00:38:37,939
unless it is indispensable

464
00:38:38,182 –> 00:38:39,342
for understanding the answer.

465
00:38:41,920 –> 00:38:44,480
I wanted to avoid
any misunderstandings,

466
00:38:44,722 –> 00:38:47,190
that’s why I wanted
to give an explanation.

467
00:38:47,458 –> 00:38:50,256
If it’s not allowed, so be it.

468
00:38:50,662 –> 00:38:53,688
I don’t believe that any of this
could possibly be misunderstood,

469
00:38:53,932 –> 00:38:57,459
but please continue.

470
00:39:21,459 –> 00:39:24,485
…it was chaos,
chaos in the timetabling

471
00:39:24,762 –> 00:39:25,888
from a technical point of view.

472
00:39:26,831 –> 00:39:29,527
Negotiations
with the Railway Authorities

473
00:39:29,767 –> 00:39:31,098
and the Ministry of Tranport

474
00:39:31,336 –> 00:39:32,268
were unsuccessful.

475
00:39:33,504 –> 00:39:35,995
Coordination between
the various departments

476
00:39:36,541 –> 00:39:37,599
did not work.

477
00:39:38,276 –> 00:39:42,303
The individual Heads of district
gave their own orders,

478
00:39:42,580 –> 00:39:46,641
the heads of the SS and the police
acted according to orders

479
00:39:46,918 –> 00:39:49,910
they received
from their superior, Himmler.

480
00:39:50,321 –> 00:39:53,119
In short, everyone acted
on their own accord

481
00:39:53,524 –> 00:39:56,516
and those who suffered
were the evacuees,

482
00:39:56,694 –> 00:39:58,025
whether Polish or Jewish.

483
00:40:00,298 –> 00:40:03,961
The instructions concerning
the transport contingents

484
00:40:04,369 –> 00:40:05,768
stipulated

485
00:40:06,170 –> 00:40:08,365
that the transports
were made by train,

486
00:40:08,606 –> 00:40:11,905
and although a train only had
a capacity for 700 people,

487
00:40:12,410 –> 00:40:15,971
it was necessary
to accomodate 1000 Jews.

488
00:40:17,749 –> 00:40:20,616
Was this not
an unnecessary complication

489
00:40:21,953 –> 00:40:24,080
for which you are responsible?

490
00:40:24,589 –> 00:40:25,647
No.

491
00:40:26,524 –> 00:40:29,493
It is a matter which

492
00:40:29,927 –> 00:40:32,691
the Central Security Office,

493
00:40:32,964 –> 00:40:34,898
or more precisely IV/B4,

494
00:40:35,400 –> 00:40:37,561
was unable to decide in any case.

495
00:40:39,137 –> 00:40:42,004
But the number 700,

496
00:40:43,574 –> 00:40:45,701
as far as I remember,

497
00:40:46,444 –> 00:40:48,173
was then a normal number

498
00:40:48,446 –> 00:40:51,347
relative to the number of wagons
which is not mentioned here,

499
00:40:51,616 –> 00:40:55,143
otherwise it would be
easy to calculate.

500
00:40:55,520 –> 00:40:58,353
It was the usual number for
transports of military personnel.

501
00:40:58,623 –> 00:41:02,559
In a military transport,
each soldier

502
00:41:02,827 –> 00:41:05,762
had his baggage with him.

503
00:41:05,930 –> 00:41:07,295
But in this particular case,

504
00:41:07,965 –> 00:41:10,331
the luggage was locked

505
00:41:10,601 –> 00:41:12,967
in special goods wagons

506
00:41:13,538 –> 00:41:15,301
that were made available

507
00:41:15,740 –> 00:41:17,139
and attached to the train.

508
00:41:17,608 –> 00:41:22,102
Silence! You may think what you like
but keep it to yourselves.

509
00:41:24,782 –> 00:41:26,249
– So that…
– Yes.

510
00:41:27,018 –> 00:41:30,454
So that the people
who were being transported

511
00:41:30,722 –> 00:41:33,691
didn’t have their luggage with them,

512
00:41:35,359 –> 00:41:40,319
because it was
in the additional goods wagons.

513
00:41:40,898 –> 00:41:44,061
In accordance with a calculation
from the Ministry of Transport,

514
00:41:44,335 –> 00:41:48,066
the capacity of the wagons
was raised

515
00:41:48,339 –> 00:41:51,831
from 700 to 1000 passengers.

516
00:41:53,511 –> 00:41:54,500
Silence!

517
00:41:59,117 –> 00:42:01,677
I forbid you to demonstrate…

518
00:42:03,488 –> 00:42:05,456
your feelings.

519
00:42:11,062 –> 00:42:13,462
The number of deportees

520
00:42:14,198 –> 00:42:17,065
was shown on a graph

521
00:42:17,602 –> 00:42:20,469
on the wall in your office.

522
00:42:22,073 –> 00:42:23,062
Yes, that’s correct.

523
00:42:25,176 –> 00:42:26,905
Your section knew exactly

524
00:42:30,214 –> 00:42:31,647
how many people were deported

525
00:42:31,949 –> 00:42:33,473
and where they were deported to.

526
00:42:34,519 –> 00:42:35,679
Yes, they knew.

527
00:42:36,020 –> 00:42:39,148
I had to make
monthly reports on the subject.

528
00:42:40,291 –> 00:42:43,658
Now, the Court asks you to show

529
00:42:44,195 –> 00:42:46,857
the territories annexed
to the Reich…

530
00:42:50,134 –> 00:42:52,125
as they were invaded.

531
00:42:53,004 –> 00:42:54,733
Are you ready to do this?

532
00:42:57,108 –> 00:42:59,770
I don’t recall the details any more.

533
00:43:01,546 –> 00:43:03,377
I only know that I have…

534
00:43:03,648 –> 00:43:05,741
I can’t see the map from here.

535
00:43:06,117 –> 00:43:08,779
May I get a bit closer?

536
00:43:12,123 –> 00:43:12,919
Yes.

537
00:43:27,939 –> 00:43:31,534
From what I can see on the map,

538
00:43:32,476 –> 00:43:36,378
the following Eastern territories
were newly incorporated.

539
00:43:37,081 –> 00:43:40,050
Here we have the border
of the old Reich.

540
00:43:40,818 –> 00:43:44,310
This part was incorporated

541
00:43:44,589 –> 00:43:46,523
and then this one.

542
00:43:51,295 –> 00:43:54,526
To my knowledge all those territories
were incorporated

543
00:43:55,666 –> 00:44:00,126
and nationalisation
was imposed by law.

544
00:44:26,198 –> 00:44:29,099
Were there many suicides
at the Drancy camp?

545
00:44:30,102 –> 00:44:32,263
There were times
when there were a lot of suicides,

546
00:44:33,405 –> 00:44:35,965
among others in summer 1942.

547
00:44:37,142 –> 00:44:39,303
I believe that over a period

548
00:44:40,412 –> 00:44:41,902
of two months or ten weeks,

549
00:44:43,082 –> 00:44:45,880
there were about a hundred suicides.

550
00:44:47,019 –> 00:44:50,147
Suicide was disapproved
of at the camp.

551
00:44:51,757 –> 00:44:55,090
Those who tried and failed
to kill themselves

552
00:44:55,761 –> 00:44:59,356
were heavily criticised for this
afterwards by their friends.

553
00:45:00,432 –> 00:45:03,595
They thought that anybody
who wanted to kill themselves

554
00:45:04,403 –> 00:45:07,770
should wait until after
they had left the camp,

555
00:45:08,574 –> 00:45:11,134
because anyone who killed themselves

556
00:45:11,577 –> 00:45:13,545
was automatically
replaced by another

557
00:45:13,846 –> 00:45:15,939
to make up numbers
for the transport.

558
00:45:20,652 –> 00:45:22,620
Now I would like
to draw your attention

559
00:45:22,855 –> 00:45:25,221
to the following document, No. 976

560
00:45:26,358 –> 00:45:28,792
which concerns the deportation

561
00:45:29,328 –> 00:45:31,228
of Jews to Auschwitz,

562
00:45:31,964 –> 00:45:34,159
in particular
that of Jewish children.

563
00:45:34,433 –> 00:45:36,196
<i>”I request urgent information</i>

564
00:45:36,468 –> 00:45:39,767
<i>”as to wether the children</i>
<i>should be deported and how. “</i>

565
00:45:41,006 –> 00:45:44,703
Here is a hand-written annotation…

566
00:45:44,977 –> 00:45:48,640
It says <i>”RF”</i>…
Is that “Republique francaise”?

567
00:45:49,481 –> 00:45:50,812
– Reichsfuhrer.
– Where?

568
00:45:52,050 –> 00:45:53,210
– Reichsfuhrer?
– SS.

569
00:45:53,485 –> 00:45:54,611
Reichsfuhrer…

570
00:45:54,887 –> 00:45:57,355
– At the top of the page.
– <i>”RF”</i> means Reichsfuhrer,

571
00:45:57,956 –> 00:45:59,753
Reichsfuhrer SS.

572
00:46:00,159 –> 00:46:01,524
Reichsfuhrer SS, yes.

573
00:46:04,830 –> 00:46:06,957
It’s document T/405.

574
00:46:09,234 –> 00:46:11,930
<i>”The question of the children’s</i>
<i>transports was discussed</i>

575
00:46:12,437 –> 00:46:14,428
<i>”with Lieutenant-colonel</i>
<i>S.S. Eichmann.</i>

576
00:46:14,973 –> 00:46:15,871
<i>”He decided that,</i>

577
00:46:16,175 –> 00:46:21,044
<i>with renewed transports</i>
<i>to the General Government…”</i>

578
00:46:21,413 –> 00:46:22,471
– the General gouvernement –

579
00:46:23,282 –> 00:46:24,442
<i>”the children’s transports</i>

580
00:46:24,883 –> 00:46:25,907
<i>”can roll.</i>

581
00:46:26,552 –> 00:46:29,112
<i>The children’s transports</i>
<i>will start rolling. “</i>

582
00:46:30,088 –> 00:46:31,988
Monsieur Wellers,
can you describe to the court

583
00:46:32,825 –> 00:46:35,225
how the children seemed

584
00:46:35,861 –> 00:46:36,850
at their arrival at the camp?

585
00:46:46,205 –> 00:46:47,263
They arrived

586
00:46:49,007 –> 00:46:50,372
at the camp in buses,

587
00:46:51,877 –> 00:46:55,176
as was usual at this camp.

588
00:46:56,582 –> 00:47:00,746
The buses were guarded
by Vichy regime gendarmes,

589
00:47:01,687 –> 00:47:04,155
together with
Vichy inspectors of police.

590
00:47:05,591 –> 00:47:07,559
The buses drove right into the camp.

591
00:47:08,894 –> 00:47:10,225
In the middle of the yard,

592
00:47:10,996 –> 00:47:12,395
there was a section…

593
00:47:13,899 –> 00:47:15,867
divided off by barbed wire.

594
00:47:16,101 –> 00:47:18,296
The buses drove into this enclosure.

595
00:47:20,239 –> 00:47:24,107
Then the children were ordered
out of the buses very rapidly…

596
00:47:26,144 –> 00:47:29,272
because many other buses
were following close behind

597
00:47:29,615 –> 00:47:33,642
and they had to make way
for the next one.

598
00:47:34,920 –> 00:47:36,387
So these poor children…

599
00:47:37,623 –> 00:47:40,091
were completely upset
and disorientated.

600
00:47:44,496 –> 00:47:45,793
They got out…

601
00:47:47,900 –> 00:47:48,798
of the buses…

602
00:47:52,371 –> 00:47:53,338
in silence.

603
00:47:55,340 –> 00:47:58,070
They took them in groups…

604
00:47:59,378 –> 00:48:02,211
corresponding approximately
to each bus.

605
00:48:03,649 –> 00:48:06,675
Sometimes there were
50, 60 or 80 children.

606
00:48:09,721 –> 00:48:10,688
The oldest…

607
00:48:12,357 –> 00:48:15,724
holding hands
with the smallest children.

608
00:48:18,130 –> 00:48:20,860
Nobody was allowed
to go near the children

609
00:48:21,166 –> 00:48:22,656
except for those of us

610
00:48:22,935 –> 00:48:25,927
with special authorisation,

611
00:48:26,271 –> 00:48:27,203
like myself.

612
00:48:28,640 –> 00:48:30,904
Then they were led
to their quarters.

613
00:48:32,010 –> 00:48:33,841
There was no furniture,

614
00:48:34,813 –> 00:48:37,247
just straw mattresses on the floor,

615
00:48:37,916 –> 00:48:39,076
which were filthy,

616
00:48:40,519 –> 00:48:41,486
disgusting,

617
00:48:42,821 –> 00:48:43,913
full of bedbugs.

618
00:48:48,527 –> 00:48:50,392
Did the children leave

619
00:48:50,629 –> 00:48:52,290
the camp easily, without…

620
00:49:00,439 –> 00:49:01,201
No.

621
00:49:02,708 –> 00:49:04,437
Mostly this was…

622
00:49:05,477 –> 00:49:08,412
a horrendous operation.

623
00:49:09,581 –> 00:49:12,516
They were woken at 5 am.

624
00:49:14,553 –> 00:49:18,683
It was impossible
to make them go down to the yard.

625
00:49:19,658 –> 00:49:20,454
So then,

626
00:49:21,360 –> 00:49:22,520
the gendarmes

627
00:49:23,261 –> 00:49:25,058
went up to their rooms…

628
00:49:26,131 –> 00:49:30,500
and seized the children,
who struggled and screamed

629
00:49:31,203 –> 00:49:33,171
as they were forced into the yard.

630
00:49:39,678 –> 00:49:43,637
Mr Wellers, when you arrived
at Auschwitz in 1944,

631
00:49:43,915 –> 00:49:45,780
did you, during that time,

632
00:49:46,585 –> 00:49:48,052
see any of the children

633
00:49:48,487 –> 00:49:52,753
you had encountered before
still alive?

634
00:50:02,567 –> 00:50:03,932
No, obviously not.

635
00:50:08,106 –> 00:50:10,768
The French police also
arrested children.

636
00:50:11,810 –> 00:50:14,779
Paris asked me

637
00:50:15,180 –> 00:50:18,707
what was to be done
with these children.

638
00:50:19,551 –> 00:50:22,543
I telegraphed
through what it says here.

639
00:50:22,821 –> 00:50:26,222
<i>”With renewed transports</i>
<i>to the General Government</i>

640
00:50:26,525 –> 00:50:29,153
<i>the children’s transports</i>
<i>can start rolling. “</i>

641
00:50:29,628 –> 00:50:32,426
The fact that it took eleven days

642
00:50:33,832 –> 00:50:37,097
to come to a decision in this matter

643
00:50:37,469 –> 00:50:41,337
proves that on my part
I had to submit the matter

644
00:50:41,606 –> 00:50:44,131
to my superiors
via the official channels.

645
00:50:44,409 –> 00:50:46,536
I was not authorised
to make such a decision.

646
00:50:46,812 –> 00:50:49,144
And when my superiors
informed me of the decision,

647
00:50:49,614 –> 00:50:50,603
eleven days later,

648
00:50:51,083 –> 00:50:54,951
I informed Paris
in accordance with my orders.

649
00:50:55,654 –> 00:50:59,522
The documents from France prove
and demonstrate that my role

650
00:50:59,858 –> 00:51:01,621
was that of an transmitting agency

651
00:51:02,294 –> 00:51:04,558
as documents
from the other countries rarely do.

652
00:51:04,796 –> 00:51:07,924
They have been preserved
more or less completely.

653
00:51:19,978 –> 00:51:22,378
You already said that,

654
00:51:22,714 –> 00:51:24,682
if a particular
task took a long time,

655
00:51:24,916 –> 00:51:27,350
it proves
that you did not deal with it

656
00:51:27,886 –> 00:51:28,853
personally.

657
00:51:29,121 –> 00:51:32,887
Are you implying that
you were more efficient

658
00:51:33,191 –> 00:51:35,682
than other people working
at your department?

659
00:51:37,195 –> 00:51:38,184
No, I’m not,

660
00:51:38,363 –> 00:51:39,227
your Honour.

661
00:51:39,798 –> 00:51:43,461
But… if it took such a long time,

662
00:51:43,735 –> 00:51:47,694
it proves to me that the competences
were not clearly defined

663
00:51:48,240 –> 00:51:52,040
and first required negotiation

664
00:51:52,310 –> 00:51:54,039
with the head of the department.

665
00:51:54,312 –> 00:51:58,248
I couldn’t decide on a case
if I wasn’t authorised to do so.

666
00:51:58,817 –> 00:52:02,014
And it took time to achieve
clarification in these matters.

667
00:52:02,287 –> 00:52:05,848
But when the competences
were defined from the start,

668
00:52:06,124 –> 00:52:10,254
one could act in accordance
with the normal official procedure.

669
00:52:20,438 –> 00:52:22,030
I have drawn up a diagram.

670
00:52:25,710 –> 00:52:27,143
Here, it goes down…

671
00:52:27,646 –> 00:52:28,738
to Muller,

672
00:52:29,147 –> 00:52:30,671
down to the circle.

673
00:52:32,317 –> 00:52:35,013
Then there’s an arrow leading

674
00:52:35,353 –> 00:52:38,516
to the head of Security.

675
00:52:38,790 –> 00:52:40,951
It’s difficult to show this
in a diagram.

676
00:52:42,194 –> 00:52:46,460
This arrow here
leads directly to Muller.

677
00:54:15,554 –> 00:54:16,612
Court rise!

678
00:54:33,438 –> 00:54:36,532
The 71st hearing is now open.

679
00:55:36,568 –> 00:55:37,728
Now, Wannsee.

680
00:55:45,477 –> 00:55:47,308
The Wannsee Conference.

681
00:55:47,746 –> 00:55:50,044
In one paragraph
in the minutes, it says:

682
00:55:50,882 –> 00:55:55,819
<i>”Finally, various possible types</i>
<i>of solution were discussed. “</i>

683
00:55:56,955 –> 00:55:58,946
Do you remember this?
Or do you want to see it?

684
00:55:59,291 –> 00:56:01,282
I remember
that it was in the minutes.

685
00:56:03,695 –> 00:56:05,754
Do you remember what was discussed?

686
00:56:06,398 –> 00:56:08,263
Different methods of killing.

687
00:56:08,533 –> 00:56:10,501
– Methods of killing?
– Yes.

688
00:56:20,545 –> 00:56:21,477
Now,

689
00:56:22,214 –> 00:56:26,048
how do you explain why,
following the conference,

690
00:56:26,385 –> 00:56:28,250
precisely these three men,

691
00:56:28,620 –> 00:56:30,986
Heydrich, Muller and Eichmann,

692
00:56:31,289 –> 00:56:32,381
stayed on to celebrate?

693
00:56:32,791 –> 00:56:35,555
– Celebrate?
– Heydrich and Muller, obviously.

694
00:56:36,461 –> 00:56:39,726
– But why Eichmann?
– I had to write the minutes.

695
00:56:40,699 –> 00:56:42,564
We three were the only ones left.

696
00:56:42,868 –> 00:56:47,464
Heydrich gave instructions as to how
he wanted the minutes written up.

697
00:56:48,073 –> 00:56:51,600
And after he had given
the points to be included,

698
00:56:52,210 –> 00:56:55,441
the subject was not mentioned again.

699
00:56:55,847 –> 00:56:58,077
I was invited to drink

700
00:56:58,383 –> 00:57:00,851
a glass of Cognac…
or two or three.

701
00:57:01,119 –> 00:57:02,086
That’s what happened.

702
00:57:10,429 –> 00:57:13,398
You told my colleague, Judge Raveh,

703
00:57:13,799 –> 00:57:17,166
that in the part
not included in the minutes,

704
00:57:18,837 –> 00:57:22,102
the methods of killing
were discussed.

705
00:57:22,474 –> 00:57:23,441
Yes.

706
00:57:26,311 –> 00:57:29,769
Who talked about the subject?

707
00:57:31,016 –> 00:57:34,076
I don’t recall the details,
your Honour.

708
00:57:34,453 –> 00:57:39,322
But I know that these gentlemen
were sitting together

709
00:57:39,624 –> 00:57:44,118
and that they talked
about it using… very blunt words,

710
00:57:44,429 –> 00:57:47,592
not the words I was later told
to put in the minutes.

711
00:57:47,866 –> 00:57:52,826
They talked about it
in very blunt terms…

712
00:57:55,273 –> 00:57:57,138
without any circumlocution.

713
00:57:57,542 –> 00:57:59,510
I certainly wouldn’t

714
00:57:59,711 –> 00:58:00,735
remember this,

715
00:58:00,946 –> 00:58:03,107
were it not for the fact
that I said to myself:

716
00:58:03,548 –> 00:58:06,244
<i>”Well, well! There’s Stuckart</i>

717
00:58:06,785 –> 00:58:10,881
<i>”who is always so…</i>
<i>meticulous and…</i>

718
00:58:12,157 –> 00:58:15,251
<i>”and a pettifogging stickler</i>
<i>for the rules!”</i>

719
00:58:16,161 –> 00:58:20,029
And at this moment…

720
00:58:20,298 –> 00:58:21,663
His tone was…

721
00:58:22,567 –> 00:58:27,266
He was using a vocabulary
far removed from legal language.

722
00:58:27,539 –> 00:58:28,938
What did he say on the subject?

723
00:58:30,108 –> 00:58:31,735
I forget the details.

724
00:58:32,210 –> 00:58:35,577
Not the details… In general!

725
00:58:36,014 –> 00:58:39,745
They talked about killing,
elimination, extermination.

726
00:58:40,685 –> 00:58:44,314
Since I had to prepare the minutes,

727
00:58:44,556 –> 00:58:47,320
I couldn’t stay
and listen to what was said.

728
00:58:47,926 –> 00:58:50,486
But the words reached my ear.

729
00:58:50,762 –> 00:58:52,286
The room wasn’t very big

730
00:58:52,597 –> 00:58:56,397
and I could make out certain words.

731
00:58:56,902 –> 00:58:58,767
And what was said
about this important subject

732
00:58:59,838 –> 00:59:03,171
you claim to have completely
forgotten?

733
00:59:03,742 –> 00:59:07,701
Your Honour, that’s not…
the more important point is…

734
00:59:08,213 –> 00:59:11,910
Do you mean to say
that the methods of killing

735
00:59:12,217 –> 00:59:14,947
are a subject of no importance?

736
00:59:15,654 –> 00:59:17,417
Oh, the methods of killing?

737
00:59:17,656 –> 00:59:20,022
That’s what we’re talking about!

738
00:59:25,864 –> 00:59:28,355
Was killing by gas discussed?

739
00:59:28,600 –> 00:59:29,897
No, not by gas.

740
00:59:41,179 –> 00:59:42,146
Quiet please!

741
00:59:42,414 –> 00:59:46,214
We ask the Court
to listen to several passages

742
00:59:46,484 –> 00:59:49,385
to which we want to draw
its attention.

743
00:59:49,654 –> 00:59:53,021
These tapes will be heard
in the original.

744
00:59:56,595 –> 01:00:02,591
<i>I remember that afterwards</i>

745
01:00:03,201 –> 01:00:05,635
<i>certain people present spoke.</i>

746
01:00:06,271 –> 01:00:10,367
<i>It was the first time</i>
<i>I attended a conference</i>

747
01:00:10,642 –> 01:00:14,476
<i>with the participation</i>
<i>of such senior officials</i>

748
01:00:14,813 –> 01:00:19,682
<i>as the Secretaries of State.</i>

749
01:00:21,119 –> 01:00:24,611
<i>Everyone’s behaviour was very calm,</i>

750
01:00:24,889 –> 01:00:28,655
<i>very friendly and very courteous.</i>

751
01:00:28,860 –> 01:00:31,294
<i>Not very much was said</i>
<i>and it didn’t go on very long.</i>

752
01:00:31,596 –> 01:00:34,963
<i>We were served a Cognac</i>
<i>before or afterwards</i>

753
01:00:35,233 –> 01:00:38,600
<i>and the affair was over.</i>

754
01:00:38,870 –> 01:00:44,706
<i>I felt satisfied</i>
<i>as to my personal self examination</i>

755
01:00:45,043 –> 01:00:48,035
<i>with regard to the result</i>
<i>of the Wannsee Conference.</i>

756
01:00:48,546 –> 01:00:51,913
<i>’At that moment I felt</i>

757
01:00:52,217 –> 01:00:55,778
<i>the kind of satisfaction</i>
<i>Pontius Pilate must have felt</i>

758
01:00:56,054 –> 01:00:58,784
<i>because I felt devoid of any guilt.</i>

759
01:00:59,057 –> 01:01:04,859
<i>The prominent figures of the Reich</i>
<i>spoke at the Wannsee Conference.</i>

760
01:01:05,230 –> 01:01:07,425
<i>The Popes had given their orders.</i>

761
01:01:07,932 –> 01:01:08,990
<i>I had to obey.</i>

762
01:01:09,668 –> 01:01:12,660
<i>I kept this in mind</i>
<i>throughout the following years…</i>

763
01:01:12,837 –> 01:01:13,565
Thank you.

764
01:01:24,049 –> 01:01:25,243
But I always understood,

765
01:01:25,550 –> 01:01:28,781
when Pontius Pilate
washed his hands,

766
01:01:29,854 –> 01:01:31,822
it was referring
to an introspective process.

767
01:01:32,457 –> 01:01:34,015
I was just going to talk about that.

768
01:01:34,192 –> 01:01:35,921
I told myself

769
01:01:36,461 –> 01:01:38,224
that I did all I could,

770
01:01:38,663 –> 01:01:42,599
I was an instrument
in the hands of superior powers.

771
01:01:43,535 –> 01:01:45,298
To put it crudely,

772
01:01:45,570 –> 01:01:48,767
I had to wash my hands
in innocence for myself.

773
01:01:49,074 –> 01:01:51,634
This is how I interpret it.

774
01:01:51,910 –> 01:01:57,177
As to myself, it didn’t concern
so much exterior factors

775
01:01:57,682 –> 01:01:59,741
but rather
the way I regarded myself.

776
01:02:00,018 –> 01:02:04,114
So, when you washed
your hands in 1942,

777
01:02:05,423 –> 01:02:07,152
it was a form of…

778
01:02:07,959 –> 01:02:08,983
mental reservation?

779
01:02:09,561 –> 01:02:10,960
In 1942?

780
01:02:11,329 –> 01:02:13,524
– At the Wannsee Conference!
– Oh, the Wannsee Conference!

781
01:02:15,133 –> 01:02:17,863
Was it a form of mental reservation?

782
01:02:37,688 –> 01:02:39,121
Dr Melkman,
you were born in Holland?

783
01:02:39,724 –> 01:02:40,452
Yes.

784
01:02:43,961 –> 01:02:48,227
Apart from having suffered
personally from what happened

785
01:02:48,699 –> 01:02:51,429
to the Jews in Holland
during the war,

786
01:02:51,702 –> 01:02:54,466
you have also researched
the subject.

787
01:02:55,673 –> 01:02:56,162
Yes,

788
01:02:56,407 –> 01:02:59,672
in particular at the Yad Vashem
Memorial of which I was director

789
01:02:59,977 –> 01:03:01,638
but I started my research earlier…

790
01:03:02,113 –> 01:03:04,104
When were you director
of the Yad Vashem Memorial?

791
01:03:05,082 –> 01:03:07,642
From 1957 to 1960.

792
01:03:09,620 –> 01:03:12,851
Did you know Mr. Edelstein?

793
01:03:13,124 –> 01:03:13,715
Yes.

794
01:03:15,326 –> 01:03:18,261
Where did he come from
and what was his role

795
01:03:18,563 –> 01:03:20,121
in connection
with the Jewish Council?

796
01:03:22,533 –> 01:03:25,400
Edelstein arrived in March,

797
01:03:26,537 –> 01:03:28,004
he came from Prague

798
01:03:29,507 –> 01:03:32,271
and his mission was to show the Jews

799
01:03:32,910 –> 01:03:35,902
how to create a <i>Judenrat</i>
(Jewish Council),

800
01:03:36,247 –> 01:03:39,273
and how to collaborate
with the Germans.

801
01:03:39,917 –> 01:03:42,818
– We had a meeting…
– Collaborate in what sense?

802
01:03:43,187 –> 01:03:44,552
Explain to us.

803
01:03:44,956 –> 01:03:49,484
The sort of relations
it should have with the Germans.

804
01:03:50,127 –> 01:03:53,096
Apparently, the Jews in Holland
didn’t know how to do this.

805
01:03:54,966 –> 01:03:57,696
He and I attended a meeting

806
01:03:57,935 –> 01:03:59,698
of the leaders
of the Zionist Federation,

807
01:04:00,438 –> 01:04:02,565
at the house of its President,

808
01:04:03,040 –> 01:04:04,507
who later perished in Bergen-Belsen.

809
01:04:06,410 –> 01:04:10,506
I want to say that
Edelstein seemed to me

810
01:04:10,781 –> 01:04:12,942
like a Jew who was sincere,
devout and loyal.

811
01:04:13,985 –> 01:04:15,111
Who sent him to Holland?

812
01:04:17,221 –> 01:04:19,314
The German authorities,
otherwise he would never

813
01:04:19,891 –> 01:04:21,654
have been able to come.

814
01:04:29,467 –> 01:04:32,630
Would you now explain to the Court

815
01:04:34,672 –> 01:04:36,640
how the deportations
to the East were organised…

816
01:04:39,477 –> 01:04:42,537
how you were informed,
how the people were selected…

817
01:04:43,247 –> 01:04:45,238
The Commandant informed
the leadership…

818
01:04:46,017 –> 01:04:48,986
the Jewish leadership
at the camp at Westerbork that…

819
01:04:50,254 –> 01:04:53,746
that the next morning,
a certain number

820
01:04:55,092 –> 01:04:56,081
had to be sent.

821
01:04:56,460 –> 01:04:58,985
They wanted a thousand,
or two or three thousand.

822
01:04:59,263 –> 01:05:03,495
The Jewish leadership
had to provide a list of names,

823
01:05:05,303 –> 01:05:07,362
the names of the people
who had to leave.

824
01:05:10,041 –> 01:05:12,305
A certain number
had to be added to each quota

825
01:05:12,677 –> 01:05:15,407
because of the possibility

826
01:05:15,646 –> 01:05:18,615
that some of them would die
en route,

827
01:05:18,916 –> 01:05:21,441
and on arrival in Auschwitz

828
01:05:21,752 –> 01:05:22,810
the number had to be exact.

829
01:05:23,621 –> 01:05:27,387
So, if they asked for 1,000,
1,020 were sent.

830
01:05:32,063 –> 01:05:34,657
Sometimes the people on the list

831
01:05:35,633 –> 01:05:38,193
had preferred status

832
01:05:39,236 –> 01:05:42,399
which meant they were protected
from deportation.

833
01:05:42,940 –> 01:05:45,067
And when there was not enough
human material,

834
01:05:45,476 –> 01:05:47,000
their special status

835
01:05:47,511 –> 01:05:48,876
was cancelled.

836
01:05:49,647 –> 01:05:52,411
Did you know then that
they were going to their deaths?

837
01:05:53,050 –> 01:05:54,711
We didn’t know that…

838
01:05:55,686 –> 01:05:57,085
they were going
to their certain deaths.

839
01:05:57,321 –> 01:06:01,314
I can only say this:
Early in 1943, I saw

840
01:06:01,959 –> 01:06:02,926
a type of…

841
01:06:05,396 –> 01:06:07,125
official report,

842
01:06:07,598 –> 01:06:09,293
addressed to the Judenrat,

843
01:06:09,533 –> 01:06:13,367
to the Jewish Council.
It said that…

844
01:06:13,871 –> 01:06:17,170
that apparently there were
fewer Jews in Poland than before.

845
01:06:17,475 –> 01:06:18,464
And, we already knew

846
01:06:18,976 –> 01:06:21,638
that many Jews had been sent
to Poland.

847
01:06:21,746 –> 01:06:22,644
Dr Melkman,

848
01:06:23,514 –> 01:06:25,505
these people on the lists,

849
01:06:26,317 –> 01:06:27,249
when did they leave?

850
01:06:28,519 –> 01:06:29,645
The next morning

851
01:06:30,254 –> 01:06:32,620
they all had to assemble

852
01:06:33,691 –> 01:06:37,787
in the main road
where the train was waiting.

853
01:06:39,330 –> 01:06:41,025
They had to get on

854
01:06:41,465 –> 01:06:42,591
and in general

855
01:06:43,034 –> 01:06:44,501
the train left
at 11 o’clock in the morning.

856
01:06:45,936 –> 01:06:46,732
Thank you.

857
01:06:56,514 –> 01:06:57,503
Dr Servatius?

858
01:06:58,549 –> 01:07:00,107
I have no questions.

859
01:07:00,551 –> 01:07:02,212
I ask the audience to be quiet.

860
01:07:03,387 –> 01:07:05,082
Those who want to leave
should do so quickly.

861
01:07:07,391 –> 01:07:09,325
I call the witness Gedalia Ben-Zvi.

862
01:07:24,875 –> 01:07:26,240
Put the Yarmulka

863
01:07:26,343 –> 01:07:27,241
on your head.

864
01:07:29,380 –> 01:07:30,677
I swear by God

865
01:07:33,017 –> 01:07:34,917
that my testimony before this Court

866
01:07:35,152 –> 01:07:35,777
will be the truth,

867
01:07:36,587 –> 01:07:37,747
the whole truth

868
01:07:37,955 –> 01:07:38,887
and nothing but the truth.

869
01:07:41,725 –> 01:07:42,692
Your full name?

870
01:07:43,160 –> 01:07:44,127
Ben-Zvi Gedalia.

871
01:07:47,531 –> 01:07:49,590
Describe how you arrived
in Auschwitz.

872
01:07:51,569 –> 01:07:54,902
After a journey
of I don’t know exactly

873
01:07:55,306 –> 01:07:58,139
how many days, in goods wagons

874
01:07:58,409 –> 01:07:59,398
with about 40 persons per wagon,

875
01:08:00,111 –> 01:08:02,409
we arrived in Birkenau,
not in Auschwitz.

876
01:08:02,713 –> 01:08:05,682
At the ramp in Birkenau,
which I would later

877
01:08:06,550 –> 01:08:07,608
get to know very well.

878
01:08:08,018 –> 01:08:11,010
Your number is quite low,
what is it?

879
01:08:11,255 –> 01:08:12,950
It’s 37017.

880
01:08:16,160 –> 01:08:19,129
I should have mentioned that
in Birkenau

881
01:08:19,597 –> 01:08:23,089
at the time of my arrival,
they tattooed us on the chest.

882
01:08:23,567 –> 01:08:24,829
Only later was it changed
to the arm.

883
01:08:25,269 –> 01:08:28,033
What work did you do in Auschwitz?

884
01:08:29,673 –> 01:08:32,107
I had different tasks…

885
01:08:32,877 –> 01:08:34,003
I went at night…

886
01:08:35,679 –> 01:08:39,137
to receive the people
arriving in Birkenau.

887
01:08:39,650 –> 01:08:43,245
I was next to the railway
when they arrived.

888
01:08:43,754 –> 01:08:47,155
There was always a vehicle
marked with a Red Cross

889
01:08:47,691 –> 01:08:49,215
in case of possible incidents.

890
01:08:50,628 –> 01:08:52,653
In case someone resisted
or went mad, became violent

891
01:08:52,897 –> 01:08:54,159
or had a fit.

892
01:08:55,065 –> 01:08:58,034
To prevent panic or disorder,

893
01:08:58,302 –> 01:08:59,360
they put them

894
01:08:59,670 –> 01:09:01,934
inside the vehicle
to calm them down.

895
01:09:02,239 –> 01:09:03,638
A vehicle of the Red Cross?

896
01:09:03,908 –> 01:09:05,000
Yes, a vehicle of the Red Cross.

897
01:09:05,609 –> 01:09:08,043
Whenever a transport arrived
it was there.

898
01:09:08,612 –> 01:09:11,206
It was the same vehicle

899
01:09:12,116 –> 01:09:14,812
where the cans
with the Zyklon B were loaded

900
01:09:15,386 –> 01:09:16,978
and later delivered
to the gas chambers.

901
01:09:17,254 –> 01:09:18,653
The German Red Cross?

902
01:09:19,056 –> 01:09:21,616
The German Red Cross.

903
01:09:25,429 –> 01:09:29,263
Do you recall an incident
on a transport from Bedzin?

904
01:09:31,335 –> 01:09:32,563
Tell us, please.

905
01:09:33,871 –> 01:09:36,965
The people
usually arrived with their things.

906
01:09:37,241 –> 01:09:39,300
But on this transport,
they arrived with nothing.

907
01:09:39,944 –> 01:09:43,107
There were approximately
150 crowded into each wagon.

908
01:09:45,416 –> 01:09:49,614
When the S.S. opened the doors,

909
01:09:50,221 –> 01:09:52,280
people literally
poured out onto the ground

910
01:09:52,556 –> 01:09:54,319
because the wagons were so packed.

911
01:09:55,259 –> 01:09:56,419
Only those who…

912
01:09:56,927 –> 01:09:59,293
who had been trampled or suffocated

913
01:09:59,530 –> 01:10:01,191
were still inside the wagons,

914
01:10:01,632 –> 01:10:02,997
either dead or half dead.

915
01:10:03,500 –> 01:10:05,593
They gave out so much heat…

916
01:10:06,136 –> 01:10:07,899
they were still hot…

917
01:10:08,305 –> 01:10:11,797
How can I put it?
Their bodies were steaming.

918
01:10:12,843 –> 01:10:15,004
Yes. Go on, please.

919
01:10:16,747 –> 01:10:20,012
We stayed on the side
until the order came:

920
01:10:21,518 –> 01:10:24,510
<i>”Get in the wagons, dirty Jews!”</i>

921
01:10:24,922 –> 01:10:25,650
So…

922
01:10:25,923 –> 01:10:27,550
among shouts and blows,

923
01:10:28,058 –> 01:10:30,253
we got into the wagons
to disentangle

924
01:10:31,295 –> 01:10:32,262
the bodies.

925
01:10:33,097 –> 01:10:34,826
It was hard work

926
01:10:35,499 –> 01:10:38,229
because they were snarled up,
they were…

927
01:10:39,270 –> 01:10:40,737
completely entangled.

928
01:10:41,005 –> 01:10:43,439
Sometimes when we pulled
a leg or an arm,

929
01:10:43,674 –> 01:10:45,039
the skin tore because of the heat.

930
01:10:45,276 –> 01:10:47,039
It was hard work.

931
01:10:47,745 –> 01:10:52,546
It took several hours
to empty one wagon.

932
01:10:52,816 –> 01:10:55,842
Groups of four men
worked in each wagon.

933
01:10:57,621 –> 01:10:59,111
Thank you, that’s all.

934
01:11:01,492 –> 01:11:03,187
Any questions, Dr Servatius?

935
01:11:03,961 –> 01:11:05,519
No, no questions.

936
01:11:06,764 –> 01:11:08,561
– Thank you.
– Thank you, Mr. Ben-Zvi.

937
01:11:11,135 –> 01:11:13,160
I call the witness Abraham Aviel.

938
01:11:30,654 –> 01:11:32,178
Please stand up, Madam.

939
01:11:35,859 –> 01:11:36,826
Raise your right hand…

940
01:11:38,629 –> 01:11:39,755
No, no, please!

941
01:11:47,971 –> 01:11:49,495
…that my testimony…

942
01:11:53,444 –> 01:11:54,308
…will be the truth…

943
01:11:55,946 –> 01:11:56,913
…the whole truth…

944
01:12:03,587 –> 01:12:04,645
…will be the truth…

945
01:12:07,291 –> 01:12:11,352
…that my testimony
in this trial…

946
01:12:22,740 –> 01:12:23,798
What is your name?

947
01:12:29,880 –> 01:12:34,817
…you arrived from Norway
with your husband, Rabbi Samuel?

948
01:12:35,319 –> 01:12:36,343
When were you born?

949
01:12:36,653 –> 01:12:37,881
In 1928.

950
01:12:41,191 –> 01:12:43,716
…some months
before the deportations started…

951
01:12:43,927 –> 01:12:46,225
…transports
of the RSHA-Bialystok…

952
01:12:46,697 –> 01:12:49,825
…these transports
were very detrimental…

953
01:12:50,934 –> 01:12:52,629
for the regular emigration…

954
01:12:53,203 –> 01:12:54,761
…transports and more transports…

955
01:12:55,706 –> 01:12:57,435
…Z, zydov, Jew…

956
01:12:57,674 –> 01:12:58,504
…why, I don’t know,

957
01:12:58,742 –> 01:13:00,767
I did nothing to harm them.

958
01:13:01,545 –> 01:13:03,035
I didn’t owe them anything,

959
01:13:03,881 –> 01:13:05,371
And yet I was beaten

960
01:13:06,150 –> 01:13:06,912
until I bled.

961
01:13:09,119 –> 01:13:10,450
– It’s me.
– It’s you.

962
01:13:15,092 –> 01:13:17,287
…which was directed by Eichmann…

963
01:13:18,095 –> 01:13:20,393
…some S.S., and with them
was the accused…

964
01:13:23,634 –> 01:13:27,092
…the blood on their head and chest

965
01:13:27,671 –> 01:13:28,695
had already coagulated…

966
01:13:55,065 –> 01:13:56,123
…but she’s dead!

967
01:13:56,900 –> 01:14:00,028
<i>”You’re crazy! She is ‘SB’!”</i>
(Special Treatment)

968
01:14:01,939 –> 01:14:03,338
<i>”…you know who I am!</i>

969
01:14:04,475 –> 01:14:05,772
<i>I give the orders here!”</i>

970
01:14:14,551 –> 01:14:16,576
<i>”…Goods for blood!</i>
<i>Blood for goods! “</i>

971
01:14:18,489 –> 01:14:21,390
…Even though…
endangering 15,000 people…

972
01:14:21,758 –> 01:14:23,316
…a head, a foot…

973
01:14:24,628 –> 01:14:26,926
…what could we do? They…

974
01:14:27,197 –> 01:14:30,166
…beat us and kept beating us
without stopping…

975
01:14:30,934 –> 01:14:34,165
…the Popes for example,
throughout the centuries

976
01:14:34,938 –> 01:14:36,132
in their Councils…

977
01:14:37,140 –> 01:14:40,769
…some didn’t have the right
to leave their homes…

978
01:14:42,045 –> 01:14:45,276
…he rained blows on me,
I let go of the corpse.

979
01:14:46,116 –> 01:14:47,174
Then, once again,

980
01:14:48,151 –> 01:14:49,118
I carried him towards…

981
01:14:49,353 –> 01:14:52,186
I pulled the corpse… this man…
all the way to the cart…

982
01:14:54,958 –> 01:14:56,084
…they packed it…

983
01:14:57,828 –> 01:15:00,126
as full as they could.
There were so many people…

984
01:15:02,032 –> 01:15:06,093
that they could hardly shut
the door…

985
01:15:06,737 –> 01:15:10,195
…when the work was finished
and it was a cold day…

986
01:15:12,743 –> 01:15:15,371
the Kapo felt sorry for us and said:

987
01:15:15,612 –> 01:15:16,510
<i>”Children,</i>

988
01:15:18,048 –> 01:15:19,174
<i>”it’s cold outside,</i>

989
01:15:19,816 –> 01:15:21,943
<i>”go and warm up in the gas chambers,</i>

990
01:15:22,185 –> 01:15:23,174
<i>there’s nobody left in there. “</i>

991
01:15:24,755 –> 01:15:25,551
…it was…

992
01:15:29,092 –> 01:15:29,956
Excuse me…

993
01:15:31,595 –> 01:15:34,029
There, there, it’ll pass.
It’s all right.

994
01:15:35,766 –> 01:15:36,994
Have some water.

995
01:15:42,306 –> 01:15:45,275
Why didn’t you resist?
Why did you get on the train?

996
01:15:56,386 –> 01:15:59,184
Have you managed to forget
what you went through?

997
01:15:59,723 –> 01:16:00,690
No, I…

998
01:16:02,092 –> 01:16:03,389
I don’t sleep at night.

999
01:16:04,728 –> 01:16:06,355
I can’t get to sleep,

1000
01:16:06,630 –> 01:16:07,824
it haunts me all the time.

1001
01:16:11,401 –> 01:16:14,837
…one question is hanging over us:
Why didn’t they revolt?

1002
01:16:16,907 –> 01:16:18,568
As a Jew who fought,

1003
01:16:19,376 –> 01:16:21,367
I absolutely repudiate
this question…

1004
01:16:22,679 –> 01:16:25,705
if it implies
the slightest accusation.

1005
01:16:26,783 –> 01:16:27,647
Thank you very much.

1006
01:16:31,822 –> 01:16:32,447
Mr. Hausner,

1007
01:16:32,889 –> 01:16:34,322
we have just heard

1008
01:16:34,691 –> 01:16:39,128
profoundly distressing matters
related in the language of a poet.

1009
01:16:40,197 –> 01:16:43,496
But… with this testimony,

1010
01:16:43,767 –> 01:16:46,099
we are getting away

1011
01:16:46,703 –> 01:16:49,194
from the object of this trial.

1012
01:16:49,973 –> 01:16:51,736
I’m sorry to have to say this

1013
01:16:51,975 –> 01:16:53,909
at the end of this testimony.

1014
01:16:54,811 –> 01:16:55,937
No, it’s a pity…

1015
01:16:58,315 –> 01:17:00,875
The Court has a certain conception

1016
01:17:01,551 –> 01:17:03,678
of what this trial should be.

1017
01:17:04,354 –> 01:17:06,948
The prosecution
must therefore conduct its argument

1018
01:17:07,224 –> 01:17:09,749
in accordance
with what the Court says.

1019
01:17:09,993 –> 01:17:12,188
This is what we are doing,
your Honour.

1020
01:17:12,462 –> 01:17:14,123
I must state that the line

1021
01:17:14,831 –> 01:17:16,799
of this trial is not being followed

1022
01:17:17,200 –> 01:17:18,633
in the way it should be.

1023
01:17:20,037 –> 01:17:20,969
Maybe that’s

1024
01:17:21,204 –> 01:17:24,731
because you are not aware
of all the elements…

1025
01:17:25,008 –> 01:17:27,636
We heard your opening speech

1026
01:17:28,211 –> 01:17:31,738
which I believe outlines very well
what you intend to demonstrate…

1027
01:17:38,055 –> 01:17:41,183
Were these Jews
sent to the death camps?

1028
01:17:41,392 –> 01:17:42,222
Yes or no?

1029
01:17:42,460 –> 01:17:45,156
I’m not denying it,
I’ve never denied it.

1030
01:17:45,429 –> 01:17:46,828
I had orders to carry out

1031
01:17:47,098 –> 01:17:49,965
by virtue of my duty
and my oath of allegiance.

1032
01:17:50,101 –> 01:17:52,035
I couldn’t shirk my duty

1033
01:17:52,403 –> 01:17:53,961
and I have never tried to.

1034
01:17:55,439 –> 01:17:58,340
But I didn’t act willingly

1035
01:17:59,243 –> 01:18:03,202
as my initial efforts clearly show.

1036
01:18:09,720 –> 01:18:11,244
The following is a report

1037
01:18:12,089 –> 01:18:13,681
of a meeting

1038
01:18:14,825 –> 01:18:15,849
where it was decided

1039
01:18:16,661 –> 01:18:18,185
how frequently the trains should run

1040
01:18:18,462 –> 01:18:19,827
from Warsaw to Treblinka,

1041
01:18:20,665 –> 01:18:22,189
from Radom to Treblinka,

1042
01:18:22,466 –> 01:18:24,229
from Cracow to Belzec,

1043
01:18:24,835 –> 01:18:26,166
from Lvov to Belzec,

1044
01:18:27,038 –> 01:18:31,031
determining two trains a day
from Warsaw to Treblinka,

1045
01:18:31,642 –> 01:18:33,803
one a day from Radom to Treblinka,

1046
01:18:34,512 –> 01:18:36,070
one a day from Cracow to Belzec,

1047
01:18:36,547 –> 01:18:38,572
one a day from Lvov to Belzec,

1048
01:18:39,483 –> 01:18:41,644
one a day from Radom to Sobibor,

1049
01:18:42,520 –> 01:18:45,978
one a day from the Northern station
in Lublin to Belzec,

1050
01:18:46,824 –> 01:18:51,989
one a day from the Central station
in Lublin to Sobibor

1051
01:18:52,630 –> 01:18:53,892
and so on and so forth.

1052
01:18:54,332 –> 01:18:55,321
Did you know

1053
01:18:55,700 –> 01:18:57,133
that sometimes

1054
01:18:57,668 –> 01:18:59,033
on these transports,

1055
01:19:00,037 –> 01:19:01,095
hundreds of people died

1056
01:19:01,372 –> 01:19:03,533
before they even reached
their destination?

1057
01:19:08,378 –> 01:19:09,436
No, I didn’t know.

1058
01:19:09,713 –> 01:19:13,479
I wasn’t responsible
for the escorts of the transports.

1059
01:19:13,783 –> 01:19:16,684
It was the duty of the Order Police.

1060
01:19:16,987 –> 01:19:18,579
But I did hear and read about it.

1061
01:19:20,023 –> 01:19:22,355
You did nothing to prevent it.

1062
01:19:25,729 –> 01:19:28,857
Had I had the power to prevent this,

1063
01:19:29,633 –> 01:19:32,067
I wouldn’t even have started,

1064
01:19:32,335 –> 01:19:34,803
but rather acted according
to my ideas and intentions.

1065
01:19:35,605 –> 01:19:39,041
There was nothing you could do
to prevent these deaths?

1066
01:19:41,311 –> 01:19:44,405
Your Honour,
I didn’t accompany the transports.

1067
01:19:45,215 –> 01:19:47,445
The orders given to the Order Police

1068
01:19:48,084 –> 01:19:49,108
were given to them

1069
01:19:49,419 –> 01:19:52,252
and it was up to them
to execute these orders.

1070
01:19:52,923 –> 01:19:55,050
From my post in Berlin
I couldn’t possibly know

1071
01:19:55,292 –> 01:19:59,092
what was going on
on the way from X to Y.

1072
01:20:02,499 –> 01:20:04,091
Look at the bottom of the first page
of this document

1073
01:20:04,367 –> 01:20:05,527
where it says…

1074
01:20:08,972 –> 01:20:10,633
<i>”The task of this department…”</i>

1075
01:20:11,875 –> 01:20:12,637
Yes.

1076
01:20:13,843 –> 01:20:15,902
It defines four tasks…

1077
01:20:20,483 –> 01:20:21,677
<i>”Registration of persons…</i>

1078
01:20:22,786 –> 01:20:23,753
<i>”…of one group of individuals.</i>

1079
01:20:23,987 –> 01:20:25,682
– <i>”Concentration…</i>
– Yes.

1080
01:20:25,989 –> 01:20:27,650
<i>- “Deportation…</i>
– Yes.

1081
01:20:27,857 –> 01:20:29,017
<i>”Confiscation of posessions.</i>

1082
01:20:29,259 –> 01:20:30,851
<i>… concentration, confiscation…”</i>

1083
01:20:31,361 –> 01:20:32,760
Yes… yes.

1084
01:20:33,363 –> 01:20:37,732
Weren’t they part of your work,

1085
01:20:38,068 –> 01:20:40,093
these four tasks?

1086
01:20:43,573 –> 01:20:44,301
Yes, that’s correct.

1087
01:20:44,574 –> 01:20:46,872
The Security Police chief
gave orders

1088
01:20:47,143 –> 01:20:48,770
via the head of department

1089
01:20:49,346 –> 01:20:52,440
if this was necessary.

1090
01:20:53,149 –> 01:20:55,947
And the head of department IV
instructed me

1091
01:20:56,152 –> 01:20:57,676
to carry them out
in this or that way.

1092
01:20:57,887 –> 01:20:59,855
In other words
you were completely passive?

1093
01:21:05,028 –> 01:21:06,552
One can’t exactly say passive.

1094
01:21:06,796 –> 01:21:10,163
I did what I have just described

1095
01:21:10,800 –> 01:21:14,292
and I obeyed and executed
the orders I received.

1096
01:21:15,839 –> 01:21:17,773
But the order
had already been given!

1097
01:21:20,310 –> 01:21:22,369
But if that had been so,

1098
01:21:23,013 –> 01:21:25,777
Heydrich would have told me,
after the Wannsee Conference:

1099
01:21:27,017 –> 01:21:28,985
<i>”Eichmann, it’s all settled,</i>

1100
01:21:29,786 –> 01:21:33,984
<i>get on with it, do what you want</i>
<i>and get it done quickly!”</i>

1101
01:21:34,257 –> 01:21:36,282
But it didn’t happen like that.

1102
01:21:37,927 –> 01:21:41,124
Himmler continued
to give order after order,

1103
01:21:41,664 –> 01:21:44,497
and the hundreds of offices involved

1104
01:21:44,768 –> 01:21:47,100
in some way had to fulfil their part

1105
01:21:47,871 –> 01:21:48,769
in the operation.

1106
01:21:49,005 –> 01:21:52,839
Unfortunately
I was caught up in this.

1107
01:21:53,376 –> 01:21:55,936
Regarding these measures,
I had to settle the matters

1108
01:21:56,146 –> 01:21:58,011
I had been ordered to deal with.

1109
01:21:58,281 –> 01:22:01,045
I’ve never denied it
and I’m not denying it now.

1110
01:22:01,985 –> 01:22:04,977
You claim you weren’t
a normal recipient of orders,

1111
01:22:06,423 –> 01:22:08,357
that you contributed
to the thinking process.

1112
01:22:08,558 –> 01:22:10,321
Is it true? Did you say that?

1113
01:22:10,960 –> 01:22:11,949
No, I don’t believe so.

1114
01:22:12,195 –> 01:22:14,425
– What, you didn’t think?
– Pardon?

1115
01:22:14,664 –> 01:22:17,360
You didn’t think?
You were an imbecile?

1116
01:22:18,368 –> 01:22:20,063
You didn’t contribute
to the thinking process?

1117
01:22:20,303 –> 01:22:20,997
Contribute?

1118
01:22:21,271 –> 01:22:23,831
– Yes!
– Of course, I did!

1119
01:22:24,074 –> 01:22:25,871
– You’re not an idiot?
– No.

1120
01:22:26,176 –> 01:22:27,666
– An idealist, then?
– An idealist, yes…

1121
01:22:27,911 –> 01:22:28,741
So, it’s true

1122
01:22:28,978 –> 01:22:30,240
what it says here!

1123
01:22:30,480 –> 01:22:33,540
I was not a…
I was a recipient of orders…

1124
01:22:33,783 –> 01:22:34,841
It’s in writing, here!

1125
01:22:35,185 –> 01:22:37,779
I dealt with Jewish affairs

1126
01:22:38,088 –> 01:22:39,055
out of idealism

1127
01:22:39,289 –> 01:22:43,350
as long as the values involved
were constructive

1128
01:22:43,593 –> 01:22:44,252
but not

1129
01:22:44,494 –> 01:22:47,224
when they were destructive.

1130
01:22:47,464 –> 01:22:49,864
As to the negative things,
I acted not as an idealist…

1131
01:22:51,101 –> 01:22:55,265
but as a pessimist.
I wrote that down somewhere.

1132
01:23:02,011 –> 01:23:03,171
When in several passages…

1133
01:23:06,516 –> 01:23:07,608
you use

1134
01:23:07,851 –> 01:23:08,909
the terms:

1135
01:23:09,152 –> 01:23:11,643
<i>”As far as we’re concerned,</i>
<i>no further problems”,</i>

1136
01:23:12,522 –> 01:23:13,716
does it mean,

1137
01:23:14,290 –> 01:23:16,485
that practicalities

1138
01:23:17,026 –> 01:23:19,290
of both the capacity
and the transport had been resolved?

1139
01:23:20,630 –> 01:23:21,824
That the deportation could commence?

1140
01:23:22,465 –> 01:23:25,434
Yes, because it says:
<i>”By order of…”</i>

1141
01:23:25,768 –> 01:23:27,133
You wrote it yourself.

1142
01:23:29,172 –> 01:23:33,006
I signed the letter,
but I didn’t write it.

1143
01:23:34,344 –> 01:23:35,504
this can easily be explained,

1144
01:23:36,980 –> 01:23:40,541
as the documents were exchanged
between the different departments.

1145
01:23:41,985 –> 01:23:44,476
I will not allow
reactions like that.

1146
01:23:45,054 –> 01:23:47,682
If you wish to listen
to the testimony, keep quiet.

1147
01:23:49,893 –> 01:23:50,951
As a rule,

1148
01:23:51,928 –> 01:23:53,361
instructions for drafting letters

1149
01:23:54,531 –> 01:23:58,524
were given to the section
by the head of the department.

1150
01:23:58,801 –> 01:24:03,465
The section thus had to follow
these instructions

1151
01:24:03,740 –> 01:24:04,968
and write the letter.

1152
01:24:06,509 –> 01:24:09,535
Normally, the letter was altered
several times depending

1153
01:24:11,014 –> 01:24:12,948
on the function of its recipient.

1154
01:24:13,349 –> 01:24:16,147
The head of department
also informed the section

1155
01:24:16,419 –> 01:24:20,287
by a system of coloured crosses,

1156
01:24:20,790 –> 01:24:26,057
if he wanted to sign
the letter himself

1157
01:24:26,229 –> 01:24:29,824
or have it signed
by the head of the security police.

1158
01:24:30,767 –> 01:24:31,756
These…

1159
01:24:32,202 –> 01:24:35,467
these instructions were communicated

1160
01:24:35,705 –> 01:24:37,798
by a blue cross or a red one…

1161
01:24:38,208 –> 01:24:40,438
That is irrelevant! We expect

1162
01:24:41,177 –> 01:24:44,578
precise answers
to precise questions…

1163
01:24:45,682 –> 01:24:47,912
as far as you are able
to provide them.

1164
01:24:48,151 –> 01:24:49,118
Do you understand?

1165
01:24:50,787 –> 01:24:52,652
You admit that if such a letter,

1166
01:24:52,889 –> 01:24:55,016
even if drafted
by one of your assistants,

1167
01:24:56,025 –> 01:24:57,652
was signed by your hand,

1168
01:24:57,894 –> 01:24:59,521
you are responsible
for its contents?

1169
01:25:01,664 –> 01:25:03,632
Of course, if I signed the letter

1170
01:25:03,866 –> 01:25:06,460
I was authorised to do so
by my superior.

1171
01:25:06,703 –> 01:25:10,833
Since he’s not here to testify,
I am.

1172
01:25:11,441 –> 01:25:12,465
That was not my question.

1173
01:25:12,675 –> 01:25:15,371
Do you assume the responsibility
in this matter, yes or no?

1174
01:25:18,414 –> 01:25:20,439
I cannot assume it

1175
01:25:20,717 –> 01:25:22,742
since I do not see

1176
01:25:22,986 –> 01:25:27,685
why I should be punished
for what I had to sign

1177
01:25:28,324 –> 01:25:30,849
in accordance with my orders.

1178
01:25:33,296 –> 01:25:35,787
You have said this
so many times already,

1179
01:25:36,065 –> 01:25:37,965
I assure you we have not forgotten.

1180
01:25:38,701 –> 01:25:41,033
I assure you
that the court already knows

1181
01:25:41,471 –> 01:25:44,907
that your argument
is that the orders came from Muller.

1182
01:25:45,475 –> 01:25:47,306
But it was you who drafted them,

1183
01:25:47,543 –> 01:25:49,602
who gave them, wasn’t it?

1184
01:25:53,283 –> 01:25:56,081
I apologise. I had forgotten.

1185
01:25:56,352 –> 01:25:57,649
You said that this morning.

1186
01:25:57,920 –> 01:26:02,118
But it is unacceptable for me
when I hear

1187
01:26:03,092 –> 01:26:05,890
that I gave orders to a commander.

1188
01:26:06,162 –> 01:26:08,995
That makes me react automatically.

1189
01:26:09,365 –> 01:26:12,664
I can’t stop myself. I will avoid
reacting like that in future.

1190
01:26:12,969 –> 01:26:14,231
Yes. It is quite clear

1191
01:26:14,470 –> 01:26:16,404
that your reactions are automatic.

1192
01:26:19,842 –> 01:26:23,471
I ask you to refrain
from any such reactions.

1193
01:26:25,048 –> 01:26:25,810
Continue.

1194
01:26:27,884 –> 01:26:30,546
It says: <i>”I will give</i>
<i>further instructions…”</i>

1195
01:26:30,853 –> 01:26:33,845
Are you still trying to tell me:
<i>”I” doesn’t mean “I”?</i>

1196
01:26:35,124 –> 01:26:35,852
No, no!

1197
01:26:38,861 –> 01:26:43,161
It’s German bureaucratic language.
It has nothing to do with me.

1198
01:26:44,200 –> 01:26:45,360
I wasn’t writing private letters.

1199
01:27:11,629 –> 01:27:14,723
We turn now
to the following document, 154…

1200
01:27:16,166 –> 01:27:19,363
given here as T/37…

1201
01:27:20,271 –> 01:27:21,829
93 in brackets,

1202
01:27:22,072 –> 01:27:23,164
where it states:

1203
01:27:23,407 –> 01:27:27,343
<i>”Eichmann summoned the Jewish</i>
<i>Council to the Majestic Hotel,</i>

1204
01:27:27,845 –> 01:27:30,871
<i>”to set out his plan.</i>

1205
01:27:31,215 –> 01:27:35,049
<i>”There Lieutenant-colonel S.S.</i>
<i>Eichmann spoke.</i>

1206
01:27:35,286 –> 01:27:37,686
<i>”First he spoke</i>
<i>about the stars for the Jews,</i>

1207
01:27:38,022 –> 01:27:41,219
<i>”saying that the Jewish Council</i>
<i>would have to supply them.</i>

1208
01:27:42,026 –> 01:27:44,153
<i>”He said that about 3 million</i>

1209
01:27:44,628 –> 01:27:46,823
<i>”would be needed.</i>

1210
01:27:47,431 –> 01:27:49,797
<i>”He also had to be notified</i>

1211
01:27:50,301 –> 01:27:52,792
<i>”of any change of address</i>
<i>and give his permission for this.</i>

1212
01:27:54,104 –> 01:27:56,095
<i>”If the Jews behaved correctly,</i>

1213
01:27:56,607 –> 01:27:58,006
<i>nothing would happen to them. “</i>

1214
01:27:58,676 –> 01:28:01,668
Further on in the deposition,
it says:

1215
01:28:01,879 –> 01:28:07,283
<i>”Eichmann mentioned his great</i>
<i>interest in Jewish libraries and art.</i>

1216
01:28:07,851 –> 01:28:10,445
<i>”He has been dealing</i>
<i>with Jewish affairs since 1934</i>

1217
01:28:10,888 –> 01:28:13,322
<i>”and he speaks Hebrew</i>
<i>better than we do.</i>

1218
01:28:14,525 –> 01:28:15,822
<i>”We told him that our museum</i>

1219
01:28:16,026 –> 01:28:19,860
<i>”contained very old books</i>
<i>and Jewish antiquities.</i>

1220
01:28:20,130 –> 01:28:22,030
<i>”He said he would visit it.</i>

1221
01:28:22,466 –> 01:28:24,195
<i>”The Jewish community</i>
<i>should understand that</i>

1222
01:28:24,368 –> 01:28:27,098
<i>what is demanded of them</i>
<i>is merely order and discipline. “</i>

1223
01:28:30,074 –> 01:28:32,907
Mr. Freudiger, did you meet

1224
01:28:33,143 –> 01:28:35,202
Adolf Eichmann in Budapest?

1225
01:28:35,779 –> 01:28:36,643
Yes.

1226
01:28:38,182 –> 01:28:39,479
How long did this meeting last?

1227
01:28:40,117 –> 01:28:42,711
Half and hour, at most.

1228
01:28:42,986 –> 01:28:45,682
From what you have said,
I understand that

1229
01:28:45,923 –> 01:28:47,686
the general tone was reassuring.

1230
01:28:47,925 –> 01:28:49,222
Yes, absolutely.

1231
01:28:50,094 –> 01:28:52,654
I don’t remember exactly
if it was the first

1232
01:28:52,930 –> 01:28:55,057
or the second meeting,
when we were told

1233
01:28:55,332 –> 01:28:58,426
that all the Jewish community
institutions were being dissolved,

1234
01:28:58,669 –> 01:29:03,072
as everything
was to be centralised in one place.

1235
01:29:04,575 –> 01:29:08,341
<i>”Responsible for us</i>
<i>and with which we could negotiate. “</i>

1236
01:29:08,579 –> 01:29:09,637
How many members

1237
01:29:09,880 –> 01:29:12,576
or representatives did this council,
which was answerable

1238
01:29:13,283 –> 01:29:14,773
to the Germans, consist of?

1239
01:29:16,387 –> 01:29:18,048
They said that…

1240
01:29:19,123 –> 01:29:21,455
no more than four or five persons.

1241
01:29:21,925 –> 01:29:24,155
They didn’t called it ‘Judenrat’.

1242
01:29:24,628 –> 01:29:27,688
This was also intended
to reassure us,

1243
01:29:28,065 –> 01:29:30,727
as it was well known
what a ‘Judenrat’ was.

1244
01:29:31,201 –> 01:29:35,535
They called it the ‘Zentralrat’,
a sort of central committee

1245
01:29:35,773 –> 01:29:37,570
of the Jewish community.

1246
01:29:38,375 –> 01:29:40,935
There were seven members.
I was one of the seven.

1247
01:29:41,545 –> 01:29:44,810
At the same meeting,
it was discussed…

1248
01:29:48,085 –> 01:29:50,246
the accused proposed or agreed

1249
01:29:51,054 –> 01:29:53,215
to exempt close relatives
from ghettoisation.

1250
01:29:54,091 –> 01:29:56,958
Close relatives of whom?

1251
01:29:57,361 –> 01:30:01,525
Close relatives
of the Central Council.

1252
01:30:02,466 –> 01:30:03,558
Had you requested this?

1253
01:30:04,635 –> 01:30:07,365
No, we had not.

1254
01:30:08,071 –> 01:30:10,335
One more question. To what extent

1255
01:30:10,507 –> 01:30:12,134
did you give information

1256
01:30:12,476 –> 01:30:15,445
about what was happening

1257
01:30:16,513 –> 01:30:19,038
to the various communities
in the provinces

1258
01:30:20,050 –> 01:30:21,244
which had been deported,

1259
01:30:21,718 –> 01:30:23,549
before and during the deportations?

1260
01:30:24,221 –> 01:30:26,018
By the time we knew

1261
01:30:26,256 –> 01:30:29,953
when we realised what Auschwitz was,

1262
01:30:30,327 –> 01:30:35,663
the Jews from the east
and north-east of Hungary,

1263
01:30:36,633 –> 01:30:40,091
300,000 of them,
had already been deported.

1264
01:30:40,404 –> 01:30:42,770
We informed them.

1265
01:30:43,006 –> 01:30:45,065
They already knew
what was in store for them.

1266
01:30:45,309 –> 01:30:47,903
But what could we do?
What could we do?

1267
01:30:51,582 –> 01:30:52,480
No, no!

1268
01:30:53,217 –> 01:30:55,014
Remove that man!

1269
01:30:55,252 –> 01:30:56,742
Silence in court!

1270
01:30:58,188 –> 01:30:59,416
Silence in court!

1271
01:31:00,858 –> 01:31:02,792
If order is not restored, I will

1272
01:31:02,993 –> 01:31:04,392
adjourn the hearing!

1273
01:31:09,233 –> 01:31:12,225
For the last time,
I call for silence.

1274
01:31:13,070 –> 01:31:14,367
You can discuss it later.

1275
01:31:16,840 –> 01:31:19,570
I beg your pardon, your Honour.

1276
01:31:19,810 –> 01:31:21,607
With reference to what I said

1277
01:31:21,845 –> 01:31:23,312
just now, before the incident,

1278
01:31:24,014 –> 01:31:25,914
people now say

1279
01:31:26,350 –> 01:31:29,046
that they were not told to flee.

1280
01:31:29,820 –> 01:31:31,947
But 50% of those who fled

1281
01:31:32,789 –> 01:31:35,383
were captured and killed.

1282
01:31:36,026 –> 01:31:38,324
So we would have been reproached
for telling them to flee.

1283
01:31:38,562 –> 01:31:39,620
They were caught

1284
01:31:40,364 –> 01:31:43,390
simply because they didn’t have
anywhere to flee to.

1285
01:31:44,968 –> 01:31:47,334
I am not sure whether
this answers the question.

1286
01:31:48,639 –> 01:31:49,264
Him! Him!

1287
01:31:50,407 –> 01:31:54,639
They reassured us
to save their own families!

1288
01:31:54,978 –> 01:31:57,640
Remove that man.
The hearing is adjourned.

1289
01:31:59,883 –> 01:32:00,781
Court rise!

1290
01:32:15,432 –> 01:32:16,922
It didn’t trouble you

1291
01:32:17,601 –> 01:32:19,967
to be the big forwarding
agent of death?

1292
01:32:23,173 –> 01:32:25,869
It troubled me greatly,

1293
01:32:26,142 –> 01:32:27,507
more than anyone

1294
01:32:27,711 –> 01:32:29,611
could imagine.

1295
01:32:30,080 –> 01:32:35,347
I repeatedly went to my superior

1296
01:32:35,585 –> 01:32:39,919
to request a transfer
to other duties.

1297
01:32:40,657 –> 01:32:42,056
– I…
– But never in writing!

1298
01:32:43,126 –> 01:32:44,650
No, not in writing,
it wasn’t customary.

1299
01:32:45,061 –> 01:32:46,323
Never in writing.

1300
01:32:47,264 –> 01:32:48,026
Yes.

1301
01:32:53,970 –> 01:32:55,528
I would like to know…

1302
01:32:57,207 –> 01:32:59,641
how many times a week
you met with Muller,

1303
01:32:59,876 –> 01:33:01,639
Mr Lieutenant-colonel?

1304
01:33:03,179 –> 01:33:05,647
At least twice.

1305
01:33:06,182 –> 01:33:10,243
Some weeks,
I had contact with Muller

1306
01:33:11,688 –> 01:33:13,849
every day,

1307
01:33:14,090 –> 01:33:17,059
either by telephone
or if he summoned me to his office.

1308
01:33:17,794 –> 01:33:21,753
Officially I reported to him
twice a week…

1309
01:33:23,199 –> 01:33:24,291
with my files…

1310
01:33:28,738 –> 01:33:32,003
How long did these meetings last?

1311
01:33:33,910 –> 01:33:34,934
In general,

1312
01:33:35,345 –> 01:33:37,609
they lasted an hour,
an hour and a half, at most.

1313
01:33:39,582 –> 01:33:43,109
You say that during the course
of these twice-weekly meetings,

1314
01:33:43,386 –> 01:33:46,514
you settled questions
as and when they arose.

1315
01:33:50,193 –> 01:33:50,989
Is that correct?

1316
01:33:52,462 –> 01:33:56,523
Yes, I gave him the files
for consultation

1317
01:33:56,766 –> 01:33:59,599
collected in my folder
marked <i>”For consultation”</i>,

1318
01:34:00,203 –> 01:34:02,194
and asked for his instructions.

1319
01:34:02,839 –> 01:34:05,034
Either decisions
were made or he kept them

1320
01:34:05,342 –> 01:34:06,900
to discuss with his superior.

1321
01:34:07,677 –> 01:34:09,144
That’s what the procedure was.

1322
01:34:13,216 –> 01:34:14,513
Are you saying

1323
01:34:15,051 –> 01:34:17,918
that he dictated everything to you
word for word, like a typist?

1324
01:34:21,491 –> 01:34:23,823
Or did you participate
in making the decisions?

1325
01:34:24,060 –> 01:34:25,550
Are you a Lieutenant-colonel

1326
01:34:25,795 –> 01:34:26,921
or a shorthand typist?

1327
01:34:31,468 –> 01:34:33,629
I have just told you in detail

1328
01:34:34,371 –> 01:34:38,865
the manner in which this happened
according to official procedure.

1329
01:34:39,209 –> 01:34:43,373
Muller’s decisions and instructions
created precedents,

1330
01:34:43,913 –> 01:34:48,873
on which we based ourselves
for similar cases…

1331
01:34:51,855 –> 01:34:54,153
– Shall we move on?
– Yes, your Honour.

1332
01:34:55,225 –> 01:34:57,750
You recall the sterilisations…

1333
01:34:58,027 –> 01:34:59,961
Mr. Hausner, first I have
a small question to ask.

1334
01:35:00,530 –> 01:35:01,292
Yes, your Honour.

1335
01:35:02,632 –> 01:35:05,032
If I understand correctly,
there were three categories…

1336
01:35:06,803 –> 01:35:08,498
One category of cases

1337
01:35:08,738 –> 01:35:13,038
where a precedent already existed,

1338
01:35:13,443 –> 01:35:14,671
…and you acted on your own.
– Yes.

1339
01:35:15,245 –> 01:35:16,507
The second category…

1340
01:35:17,847 –> 01:35:20,407
consisted of cases for which
there was no precedent.

1341
01:35:20,650 –> 01:35:24,108
– I had to consult Muller.
– Without making a proposal?

1342
01:35:24,354 –> 01:35:25,218
That is correct.

1343
01:35:25,688 –> 01:35:27,849
The third category
between the two others,

1344
01:35:28,691 –> 01:35:30,625
maybe yes, maybe no.

1345
01:35:31,127 –> 01:35:33,220
Did you make any kind of proposal?

1346
01:35:33,897 –> 01:35:35,330
Or how would you define it?

1347
01:35:35,965 –> 01:35:37,262
No, not a proposal.

1348
01:35:37,500 –> 01:35:39,434
I drew his attention to the fact

1349
01:35:40,036 –> 01:35:44,097
that a fortnight
or several months previously,

1350
01:35:44,340 –> 01:35:46,103
he had taken a particular decision
in a similar case.

1351
01:35:46,309 –> 01:35:49,005
I would ask him if the same
decision was to be taken here

1352
01:35:49,245 –> 01:35:52,840
on the basis of the decision
made three months previously.

1353
01:35:53,783 –> 01:35:56,684
My assistant also had
to bring the case to my notice.

1354
01:35:56,920 –> 01:35:58,547
– Without making a proposal?
– That is correct.

1355
01:35:59,756 –> 01:36:01,917
This created extra work
for my bureau,

1356
01:36:02,492 –> 01:36:06,326
as a memorandum had to be made
and a file opened

1357
01:36:06,563 –> 01:36:08,758
on account of every trifle.

1358
01:36:09,999 –> 01:36:11,227
If that was so,

1359
01:36:12,135 –> 01:36:15,229
why didn’t Muller
remove you from your post?

1360
01:36:19,275 –> 01:36:22,711
I can’t say.
I would have welcomed it.

1361
01:36:22,979 –> 01:36:25,345
Perhaps because
I was very meticulous…

1362
01:36:26,950 –> 01:36:27,917
very meticulous,

1363
01:36:28,551 –> 01:36:32,453
and because I followed instructions
and obeyed orders.

1364
01:36:33,022 –> 01:36:36,321
Muller was also…

1365
01:36:37,293 –> 01:36:39,124
He was an official

1366
01:36:39,295 –> 01:36:42,822
who had achieved a high position
due to his accuracy.

1367
01:36:44,133 –> 01:36:48,570
Maybe that was one of the reasons.

1368
01:36:49,405 –> 01:36:52,272
And my manner of dealing with people

1369
01:36:53,142 –> 01:36:56,373
was not brusque,
I was not the sort to…

1370
01:36:57,680 –> 01:37:01,639
to get involved in petty feuding
or jealousies.

1371
01:37:02,652 –> 01:37:05,450
As is often the case
for functionaries,

1372
01:37:06,155 –> 01:37:09,090
there are people
who disrupt the service

1373
01:37:09,926 –> 01:37:12,121
purely for reasons
of personal ambition.

1374
01:37:14,230 –> 01:37:17,131
I simply obeyed orders
and carried on quietly with my work.

1375
01:37:18,568 –> 01:37:20,331
Perhaps that was why…

1376
01:37:26,442 –> 01:37:27,636
I will also permit myself

1377
01:37:27,977 –> 01:37:30,070
to depart
from the habitual procedure

1378
01:37:31,381 –> 01:37:33,144
by abandoning Hebrew for a moment

1379
01:37:33,583 –> 01:37:35,642
to address the accused
in his own language.

1380
01:37:39,556 –> 01:37:41,023
Did you never experience…

1381
01:37:43,860 –> 01:37:45,293
a conflict…

1382
01:37:46,195 –> 01:37:48,823
what one could call
a conflict of conscience?

1383
01:37:49,165 –> 01:37:50,894
Between your…

1384
01:37:51,100 –> 01:37:53,125
duty and your conscience?

1385
01:37:54,537 –> 01:37:56,505
One could call it
a state of being split…

1386
01:37:56,673 –> 01:37:57,332
Being split?

1387
01:37:58,107 –> 01:38:02,476
A conscious split state,

1388
01:38:02,879 –> 01:38:07,077
where one could flee
from one side to the other.

1389
01:38:07,317 –> 01:38:08,750
It was necessary to abandon

1390
01:38:09,018 –> 01:38:10,679
one’s personal conscience?

1391
01:38:11,220 –> 01:38:12,551
Yes, one could say that.

1392
01:38:14,824 –> 01:38:17,884
Because one could not control
or regulate it oneself.

1393
01:38:18,294 –> 01:38:21,457
Except if one accepted
the personal consequences.

1394
01:38:21,698 –> 01:38:25,293
One could have said:
<i>”I refuse to do this”.</i>

1395
01:38:25,969 –> 01:38:28,961
But I don’t know
what would have happened then.

1396
01:38:29,405 –> 01:38:31,930
If there had been
more civil courage,

1397
01:38:32,175 –> 01:38:33,802
things would have been different.

1398
01:38:35,745 –> 01:38:36,871
Don’t you think so?

1399
01:38:37,113 –> 01:38:41,982
Of course, if this civil courage
had been hierarchically organised.

1400
01:38:42,952 –> 01:38:44,943
Then it wasn’t a fate…

1401
01:38:46,589 –> 01:38:47,817
an inevitable fate?

1402
01:38:48,925 –> 01:38:50,722
It’s a question of human behaviour.

1403
01:38:51,060 –> 01:38:54,723
That’s how it happened,
it was wartime,

1404
01:38:54,964 –> 01:38:57,899
everyone thought:
<i>”It’s useless to fight against it,</i>

1405
01:38:58,134 –> 01:39:00,762
<i>”it’s only a drop in the ocean,</i>
<i>what use is it?</i>

1406
01:39:00,937 –> 01:39:05,772
<i>There’s no point in it</i>
<i>it will do neither good nor harm…”</i>

1407
01:39:06,009 –> 01:39:11,037
It was also connected
with the times, I think,

1408
01:39:11,981 –> 01:39:15,542
with the era,
with ideological education,

1409
01:39:16,219 –> 01:39:19,052
rigid discipline,
and all that kind of thing.

1410
01:39:21,958 –> 01:39:23,448
At that time,
it was very difficult…

1411
01:39:25,228 –> 01:39:26,320
for an individual…

1412
01:39:29,365 –> 01:39:31,265
to accept the consequences…

1413
01:39:33,169 –> 01:39:35,933
of refusing to obey orders.

1414
01:39:36,572 –> 01:39:41,168
One was living at a time

1415
01:39:41,644 –> 01:39:44,636
where crime was legalised

1416
01:39:44,847 –> 01:39:46,405
by the state.

1417
01:39:47,283 –> 01:39:51,686
It was the responsibility
of those who gave the orders.

1418
01:39:56,159 –> 01:40:00,528
According to you,
the idealist you claim to have been

1419
01:40:00,763 –> 01:40:02,560
is defined as someone…

1420
01:40:04,333 –> 01:40:06,801
who executes the orders
he receives from above

1421
01:40:07,236 –> 01:40:09,796
to the best of his ability.

1422
01:40:10,206 –> 01:40:11,764
For me, that meant

1423
01:40:12,408 –> 01:40:16,936
adherence to the nationalism
being preached, and,

1424
01:40:17,213 –> 01:40:21,582
as a nationalist, to do my duty
according to my oath of allegiance.

1425
01:40:21,851 –> 01:40:23,512
That’s how I understood it.

1426
01:40:23,786 –> 01:40:27,483
Today I realise
that all nationalism,

1427
01:40:28,424 –> 01:40:30,324
taken to extremes,

1428
01:40:31,594 –> 01:40:32,993
leads to gross egoism

1429
01:40:33,863 –> 01:40:37,321
and from there, it is only
a small step to radicalism.

1430
01:40:41,370 –> 01:40:43,133
The general outlines,

1431
01:40:44,006 –> 01:40:46,440
both strategic and tactical,

1432
01:40:46,676 –> 01:40:48,234
of the extermination of the Jews

1433
01:40:48,644 –> 01:40:51,613
were planned as a campaign

1434
01:40:51,881 –> 01:40:55,180
on psychological…

1435
01:40:55,551 –> 01:40:57,451
like psychological warfare,

1436
01:40:57,754 –> 01:41:00,416
using tactical deception…

1437
01:41:01,691 –> 01:41:03,818
and so on.

1438
01:41:04,827 –> 01:41:07,352
I believe
that it gradually crystallised

1439
01:41:07,697 –> 01:41:13,226
during the course of events.
And if necessary,

1440
01:41:13,870 –> 01:41:18,136
Himmler gave orders directly.

1441
01:41:19,275 –> 01:41:20,674
I do not think

1442
01:41:20,877 –> 01:41:24,176
that originally
– how can I put it –

1443
01:41:25,381 –> 01:41:28,145
a discussion about
what actions were to be taken,

1444
01:41:28,417 –> 01:41:31,750
in which the whole thing was planned
down to the last detail…

1445
01:41:32,188 –> 01:41:34,679
I believe it somehow
resulted automatically…

1446
01:41:38,060 –> 01:41:42,087
So you say it evolved organically
over the course of time.

1447
01:41:42,799 –> 01:41:44,960
Yes. That’s how I’d describe it.

1448
01:41:45,434 –> 01:41:46,662
For example,

1449
01:41:47,503 –> 01:41:49,266
first there were
the Jewish communities…

1450
01:41:51,674 –> 01:41:52,470
in Vienna,

1451
01:41:53,142 –> 01:41:54,109
Prague

1452
01:41:54,510 –> 01:41:55,442
and then Berlin…

1453
01:41:57,446 –> 01:42:00,438
which were placed
under the control of the Gestapo

1454
01:42:01,284 –> 01:42:03,411
for the purpose of emigration.

1455
01:42:03,753 –> 01:42:07,086
First centralisation
of the Jewish organisations

1456
01:42:07,690 –> 01:42:10,921
took place, together
with their parent organisation.

1457
01:42:11,227 –> 01:42:12,592
I am talking about

1458
01:42:12,762 –> 01:42:14,320
the supervision by the Gestapo.

1459
01:42:14,530 –> 01:42:15,895
Yes.

1460
01:42:17,166 –> 01:42:20,397
The Jewish representatives
were given

1461
01:42:20,636 –> 01:42:21,728
the task…

1462
01:42:24,473 –> 01:42:27,340
of registering
the members of their communities

1463
01:42:27,643 –> 01:42:30,544
for the purpose of emigration,

1464
01:42:31,514 –> 01:42:34,745
to settle the question
of their property

1465
01:42:35,051 –> 01:42:38,714
and to set up
a machinery of strict controls…

1466
01:42:39,989 –> 01:42:42,822
which greatly facilitated
emigration.

1467
01:42:43,659 –> 01:42:45,251
And rapidly and smoothly,

1468
01:42:45,461 –> 01:42:48,828
this switched to deportation.

1469
01:42:48,998 –> 01:42:49,521
Yes.

1470
01:42:51,868 –> 01:42:52,960
Then there was the idea

1471
01:42:53,569 –> 01:42:54,968
of the Jewish Councils…

1472
01:42:56,739 –> 01:42:57,967
in Poland.

1473
01:42:58,875 –> 01:42:59,432
Yes.

1474
01:42:59,909 –> 01:43:01,740
Then in Hungary,

1475
01:43:02,578 –> 01:43:04,842
and before that in Holland.

1476
01:43:05,114 –> 01:43:06,638
This must have started in Holland,

1477
01:43:07,216 –> 01:43:09,081
with the Jewish Council
in Amsterdam,

1478
01:43:09,352 –> 01:43:11,980
then in Poland,
or perhaps even simultaneously,

1479
01:43:12,221 –> 01:43:13,518
and then finally in Hungary.

1480
01:43:14,090 –> 01:43:15,057
Yes.

1481
01:43:15,291 –> 01:43:17,851
These Jewish Councils,

1482
01:43:18,127 –> 01:43:19,594
as instruments…

1483
01:43:24,634 –> 01:43:29,162
of the German policy
towards the Jews,

1484
01:43:29,639 –> 01:43:33,575
largely facilitated the application

1485
01:43:34,210 –> 01:43:36,144
of the measures
taken against the Jews…

1486
01:43:38,114 –> 01:43:41,174
and saved a great deal of manpower,

1487
01:43:41,918 –> 01:43:44,478
police as well as officials.

1488
01:43:44,954 –> 01:43:45,613
Yes.

1489
01:43:45,821 –> 01:43:46,913
The councils,

1490
01:43:47,924 –> 01:43:50,893
by misleading the victims…

1491
01:43:54,430 –> 01:43:56,295
made this work easier,

1492
01:43:56,832 –> 01:43:59,596
and put the Jews to work

1493
01:43:59,869 –> 01:44:02,337
for their own extermination.

1494
01:44:04,540 –> 01:44:05,564
Yes,

1495
01:44:06,175 –> 01:44:07,437
that is correct.

1496
01:44:13,149 –> 01:44:14,741
Please translate.

1497
01:44:20,990 –> 01:44:24,187
Sit down during the translation,
it will take some time.

1498
01:44:33,836 –> 01:44:36,066
He can put on his headphones,
if he wants to.

1499
01:44:44,647 –> 01:44:47,172
When you gave the order…

1500
01:44:48,284 –> 01:44:51,185
in T/476…

1501
01:44:53,589 –> 01:44:56,080
which corresponds to our 266…

1502
01:44:57,493 –> 01:45:00,189
to send the transports

1503
01:45:00,730 –> 01:45:02,197
to Cholm,

1504
01:45:03,132 –> 01:45:04,622
where were they headed?

1505
01:45:16,445 –> 01:45:18,242
It says here: to Cholm.

1506
01:45:19,148 –> 01:45:21,309
In other words, to Sobibor!

1507
01:45:23,452 –> 01:45:26,216
As far as I know,
it’s not the same place as Sobibor.

1508
01:45:27,256 –> 01:45:30,020
But it’s the station
from where you sent these people

1509
01:45:30,826 –> 01:45:33,090
to Sobibor, to Treblinka,

1510
01:45:33,429 –> 01:45:34,225
and to Majdanek.

1511
01:45:34,697 –> 01:45:36,961
It says: <i>”Cholm”</i>,
so it must be Cholm.

1512
01:45:37,800 –> 01:45:39,290
It says: <i>”via Cholm”.</i>

1513
01:45:41,704 –> 01:45:44,104
People were sent from Cholm?

1514
01:45:46,742 –> 01:45:47,868
When you gave orders

1515
01:45:48,244 –> 01:45:50,838
to transport people to Cholm,

1516
01:45:51,080 –> 01:45:52,672
what was their final destination?

1517
01:45:52,948 –> 01:45:54,438
The death camps!

1518
01:45:54,683 –> 01:45:56,082
Will you finally tell us?

1519
01:45:56,519 –> 01:45:58,851
You say you don’t want to evade
anything, so tell us openly!

1520
01:45:59,055 –> 01:46:03,185
To Cholm. In my statement, I said

1521
01:46:03,459 –> 01:46:05,518
that my superior sent me there

1522
01:46:05,828 –> 01:46:07,625
and that I had seen
how the Jews were gassed,

1523
01:46:07,897 –> 01:46:09,296
and had written a report on it.

1524
01:46:09,565 –> 01:46:10,930
No, you were talking about Kulmhof!

1525
01:46:11,267 –> 01:46:12,928
– Chelmno.
– It’s the same place.

1526
01:46:13,169 –> 01:46:14,534
It’s not the same place!

1527
01:46:14,737 –> 01:46:16,227
Kulm is Chelmno.

1528
01:46:16,772 –> 01:46:17,830
Kulm – hof!

1529
01:46:18,107 –> 01:46:20,735
– All right, Kulm or Kulmhof…
– Kulm is…

1530
01:46:21,043 –> 01:46:23,204
…is the Polish name for Chelm!

1531
01:46:24,447 –> 01:46:25,914
No, there’s a Kulm in the Warthegau.

1532
01:46:26,148 –> 01:46:26,876
Yes, yes.

1533
01:46:27,116 –> 01:46:29,516
And Kulmhof is the same place.

1534
01:46:29,785 –> 01:46:31,844
– Yes, but it’s not Cholm.
– Agreed!

1535
01:46:32,088 –> 01:46:35,421
I say that in Polish, Kolm,
Kulm, Kulmhof, is Chelmno.

1536
01:46:36,158 –> 01:46:39,685
No, there’s a Chelmno and a Chelm.
They’re different places.

1537
01:46:39,929 –> 01:46:42,625
Yes, all right, agreed,

1538
01:46:43,532 –> 01:46:46,524
but what is the Polish name
for Kulm or Kulmhof?

1539
01:46:47,536 –> 01:46:49,094
For Kulmhof? Chelmno.

1540
01:46:49,371 –> 01:46:51,271
But that’s what I said!

1541
01:46:52,141 –> 01:46:55,133
But it’s not Cholm.

1542
01:46:55,411 –> 01:46:59,245
– Kulm and Kulmhof are close.
– It’s the same place.

1543
01:46:59,515 –> 01:47:01,380
That’s what I think.

1544
01:47:02,284 –> 01:47:04,582
I’m sorry,
I still don’t understand a thing.

1545
01:47:05,020 –> 01:47:07,318
The Kolm in this telegram, Kolm.

1546
01:47:07,590 –> 01:47:08,648
– Cholm!
– Cholm!

1547
01:47:08,924 –> 01:47:10,289
It isn’t in the Warthegau…

1548
01:47:10,559 –> 01:47:12,550
No, it’s in the General Government.

1549
01:47:12,795 –> 01:47:13,955
It’s the famous Chelm.

1550
01:47:14,396 –> 01:47:17,923
Does the accused know that?
It says: <i>”General Government.”</i>

1551
01:47:18,167 –> 01:47:20,499
– Ask him!
– He talked about the Warthegau.

1552
01:47:20,936 –> 01:47:22,335
I ask the accused:

1553
01:47:22,638 –> 01:47:25,971
It’s not Kulm or Kulmhof
in the Warthegau?

1554
01:47:27,543 –> 01:47:29,272
Yes, it says: <i>”General Goverment”.</i>

1555
01:47:29,545 –> 01:47:34,744
I thought that Cholm
was the same as Kulm or Kulmhof.

1556
01:47:34,984 –> 01:47:38,784
But I’m not trying to avoid
the question as Attorney General

1557
01:47:39,188 –> 01:47:40,086
is implying.

1558
01:47:40,256 –> 01:47:43,487
In my statement,
I said that I had been there.

1559
01:47:43,759 –> 01:47:45,818
But when I read <i>”Cholm”</i>,

1560
01:47:46,128 –> 01:47:49,620
I was sure that was
Kulm in the Warthegau.

1561
01:47:49,999 –> 01:47:51,694
From there,
they were sent to their death,

1562
01:47:51,867 –> 01:47:54,165
– weren’t they?
– I have never been to Cholm,

1563
01:47:54,537 –> 01:47:55,526
but it is entirely possible,

1564
01:47:55,804 –> 01:47:57,897
and I am not denying it,

1565
01:47:58,240 –> 01:48:00,708
that it was also a death camp.

1566
01:48:01,177 –> 01:48:02,735
But I don’t know.

1567
01:48:30,973 –> 01:48:33,840
I was ordered to present myself
to Heydrich.

1568
01:48:33,976 –> 01:48:35,568
He told me:

1569
01:48:35,845 –> 01:48:38,143
<i>”The F? hrer has ordered</i>
<i>the extermination…</i>

1570
01:48:38,614 –> 01:48:40,673
<i>the physical extermination</i>
<i>of the Jews. “</i>

1571
01:48:41,884 –> 01:48:43,613
He ordered me

1572
01:48:43,886 –> 01:48:46,377
to go to Lublin

1573
01:48:46,656 –> 01:48:48,681
and contact Globocnik.

1574
01:48:50,860 –> 01:48:52,191
I arrived in Lublin.

1575
01:48:52,662 –> 01:48:54,823
The facilities
were not yet in operation.

1576
01:48:55,264 –> 01:48:57,892
I returned to Berlin
and made my report

1577
01:48:58,201 –> 01:49:01,864
to my superior, General Muller,

1578
01:49:02,138 –> 01:49:04,402
and to the chief
of the Security Police,

1579
01:49:04,674 –> 01:49:06,107
in accordance with my orders,

1580
01:49:06,409 –> 01:49:10,106
on what I had seen.

1581
01:49:11,681 –> 01:49:15,617
In the case of the second journey,
it wasn’t Heydrich

1582
01:49:15,885 –> 01:49:17,716
but Muller who ordered it.

1583
01:49:18,421 –> 01:49:22,687
He told me to go to the Warthegau

1584
01:49:23,092 –> 01:49:27,654
and informed me that
at Kulm or Kulmhof

1585
01:49:28,498 –> 01:49:31,194
Jews were being gassed,

1586
01:49:31,467 –> 01:49:35,301
and he requested a report
on how this had been carried out.

1587
01:49:36,305 –> 01:49:41,333
At Kulmhof, I observed this process
in accordance with my orders.

1588
01:49:41,978 –> 01:49:43,843
I took notes,

1589
01:49:44,947 –> 01:49:47,438
returned to Berlin,

1590
01:49:47,717 –> 01:49:50,345
and made my report to Muller
about what I had seen.

1591
01:49:51,921 –> 01:49:55,948
After I had made my report
to Muller, I asked him

1592
01:49:56,259 –> 01:49:57,954
for the first time

1593
01:49:58,261 –> 01:50:01,059
to transfer me to other duties,

1594
01:50:01,330 –> 01:50:04,629
saying I was not the right man
for this task.

1595
01:50:06,002 –> 01:50:08,368
Muller answered

1596
01:50:08,671 –> 01:50:11,139
that a soldier at the front
had no choice

1597
01:50:11,941 –> 01:50:15,468
where he was posted
and had to do his duty

1598
01:50:15,745 –> 01:50:17,906
wherever he was sent.

1599
01:50:25,288 –> 01:50:28,780
After my visit to Kulm,

1600
01:50:29,392 –> 01:50:31,792
Muller sent me on another mission,

1601
01:50:32,094 –> 01:50:34,688
this time to Minsk.

1602
01:50:36,165 –> 01:50:40,465
Muller told me that executions
were taking place in Minsk.

1603
01:50:40,736 –> 01:50:42,931
He wanted a report on this.
I went to Minsk.

1604
01:50:43,906 –> 01:50:49,606
There an extermination operation
was just finishing.

1605
01:50:50,813 –> 01:50:54,214
I saw machine gunners
firing into a mass of people

1606
01:50:54,517 –> 01:50:57,179
who were standing in a ditch.

1607
01:50:57,920 –> 01:51:00,718
It was on that occasion

1608
01:51:00,957 –> 01:51:04,916
that I saw, as I have said,

1609
01:51:05,194 –> 01:51:10,325
a child shot in its mother’s arms.

1610
01:51:12,835 –> 01:51:18,137
It was after visiting these places
in accordance with the orders,

1611
01:51:18,407 –> 01:51:22,537
and having made my report
on what I had seen,

1612
01:51:22,778 –> 01:51:26,805
that I was ordered to Auschwitz

1613
01:51:27,083 –> 01:51:31,520
to report to Muller on this matter.

1614
01:51:34,223 –> 01:51:37,124
Subsequently, I received an order

1615
01:51:37,393 –> 01:51:39,725
to go to Lublin again.

1616
01:51:40,396 –> 01:51:44,389
I was to deliver
to General Globocnik

1617
01:51:44,800 –> 01:51:46,233
a letter

1618
01:51:46,902 –> 01:51:48,802
which instructed him…

1619
01:51:49,071 –> 01:51:51,562
which authorised him

1620
01:51:51,841 –> 01:51:55,743
to kill 150,000 or 250,000 Jews.

1621
01:51:57,480 –> 01:52:00,643
I can remember hearing

1622
01:52:00,916 –> 01:52:05,250
that Globocnik had the strange idea

1623
01:52:05,655 –> 01:52:09,614
of having written authorisation
sent after the fact.

1624
01:52:09,892 –> 01:52:11,860
He’d apparently requested it.

1625
01:52:12,461 –> 01:52:14,656
I also remember

1626
01:52:14,930 –> 01:52:18,229
as I was driving
through the outskirts of Lemberg,

1627
01:52:19,001 –> 01:52:20,969
I saw something

1628
01:52:21,237 –> 01:52:24,400
I had never seen before:

1629
01:52:24,674 –> 01:52:26,665
A fountain of blood.

1630
01:52:27,410 –> 01:52:29,901
I came to a place

1631
01:52:30,212 –> 01:52:34,410
where some Jews had been shot
some time before.

1632
01:52:34,684 –> 01:52:37,812
Probably due
to the pressure of the gas,

1633
01:52:38,087 –> 01:52:43,650
the blood was shooting up
from the ground like a fountain.

1634
01:52:45,261 –> 01:52:48,924
Those were the four journeys
I made in the course of my duties,

1635
01:52:49,231 –> 01:52:51,722
and where I had direct contact

1636
01:52:52,234 –> 01:52:55,135
with the extermination of the Jews.

1637
01:52:55,504 –> 01:52:56,664
I was in contact

1638
01:52:57,239 –> 01:52:58,467
against my will.

1639
01:52:59,041 –> 01:53:00,065
I had to obey.

1640
01:53:00,543 –> 01:53:01,874
I had to do it.

1641
01:53:02,278 –> 01:53:05,213
I have nothing more to say
on this subject.

1642
01:53:46,355 –> 01:53:48,323
Someone involved
in the extermination of the Jews,

1643
01:53:48,591 –> 01:53:50,752
was he a criminal in your eyes?

1644
01:53:58,334 –> 01:53:59,961
He was unfortunate.

1645
01:54:01,137 –> 01:54:02,263
Was he a criminal?

1646
01:54:02,538 –> 01:54:04,665
I can’t answer this question,

1647
01:54:04,940 –> 01:54:09,070
as I was never put
in that sort of situation.

1648
01:54:11,046 –> 01:54:13,344
You saw Hoess doing it at Auschwitz.

1649
01:54:13,616 –> 01:54:15,311
Did you think he was a criminal,
a murderer?

1650
01:54:17,620 –> 01:54:19,019
A criminal or not?

1651
01:54:21,056 –> 01:54:22,717
I felt sorry for him and pitied him.

1652
01:54:22,992 –> 01:54:26,359
Did you consider him
a criminal, yes or no?

1653
01:54:26,629 –> 01:54:29,894
I refuse to reveal
my inner feelings.

1654
01:54:31,000 –> 01:54:32,194
I appeal to the Court.

1655
01:54:32,468 –> 01:54:34,959
You must reply to all questions

1656
01:54:35,237 –> 01:54:37,671
unless I tell you otherwise.

1657
01:54:41,577 –> 01:54:43,841
Yes, your Honour,
I am prepared to do so,

1658
01:54:44,079 –> 01:54:48,175
but I feel as if I’m being grilled
like a steak!

1659
01:54:48,818 –> 01:54:49,807
Carry on, Mr. Hausner.

1660
01:54:50,085 –> 01:54:52,383
You cannot evade the question.

1661
01:54:52,655 –> 01:54:54,054
What did you think

1662
01:54:54,290 –> 01:54:57,123
of the extermination programme,
which you knew about,

1663
01:54:57,393 –> 01:55:01,420
and the people who carried it out?
Answer the question.

1664
01:55:03,866 –> 01:55:06,426
A man can be put in a situation

1665
01:55:06,702 –> 01:55:09,569
which drives him almost mad

1666
01:55:09,905 –> 01:55:13,033
and where it is only a small step,

1667
01:55:13,309 –> 01:55:15,675
taken without reflection,

1668
01:55:15,978 –> 01:55:17,946
before he reaches for his pistol.

1669
01:55:18,214 –> 01:55:20,842
Each individual is free to react

1670
01:55:21,116 –> 01:55:22,845
in his own way.

1671
01:55:23,118 –> 01:55:27,282
I can only say how I would probably

1672
01:55:27,656 –> 01:55:29,180
have reacted.

1673
01:55:29,458 –> 01:55:30,891
If I had been ordered

1674
01:55:31,093 –> 01:55:33,061
to carry out the extermination,

1675
01:55:33,262 –> 01:55:35,753
I would probably have shot myself
there and then,

1676
01:55:36,131 –> 01:55:37,063
I think.

1677
01:55:37,266 –> 01:55:40,292
I can’t say for sure
what I would have done.

1678
01:55:40,603 –> 01:55:41,763
But…

1679
01:55:43,639 –> 01:55:45,800
knowing my own reactions

1680
01:55:46,075 –> 01:55:48,509
and what I knew, then,

1681
01:55:48,811 –> 01:55:51,871
I believe that I would have
put an end to myself,

1682
01:55:52,147 –> 01:55:54,012
in order to remove myself…

1683
01:55:55,684 –> 01:55:57,845
from this situation.

1684
01:56:03,359 –> 01:56:05,020
During the course
of your interrogation

1685
01:56:05,361 –> 01:56:06,851
by the police,

1686
01:56:07,897 –> 01:56:10,388
you stated:

1687
01:56:12,968 –> 01:56:16,927
<i>”I know that I will be found guilty</i>

1688
01:56:17,239 –> 01:56:19,298
<i>”of complicity to murder.</i>

1689
01:56:23,345 –> 01:56:26,007
<i>”I know that I risk</i>
<i>the death penalty.</i>

1690
01:56:27,583 –> 01:56:30,484
<i>”I do not ask for mercy</i>

1691
01:56:30,753 –> 01:56:32,812
<i>because I do not deserve it. “</i>

1692
01:56:34,590 –> 01:56:35,522
You said

1693
01:56:35,758 –> 01:56:38,022
that you were prepared
to hang yourself in public,

1694
01:56:38,260 –> 01:56:39,522
to atone

1695
01:56:39,862 –> 01:56:42,456
for the abominable crimes
that had been perpetrated.

1696
01:56:42,865 –> 01:56:44,059
Those are your own words,

1697
01:56:45,100 –> 01:56:49,093
taken from page 361
of your statement.

1698
01:56:49,405 –> 01:56:51,236
Do you admit that you are complicit

1699
01:56:51,507 –> 01:56:53,975
in the murder of millions of Jews?

1700
01:56:56,278 –> 01:57:00,908
– From the legal point of view…
– My question is not legal!

1701
01:57:01,717 –> 01:57:03,651
In your conscience,

1702
01:57:03,919 –> 01:57:07,320
do you consider yourself
guilty of complicity

1703
01:57:07,756 –> 01:57:11,157
in the murder of millions of Jews,
yes or no?

1704
01:57:16,198 –> 01:57:17,927
In human terms, yes.

1705
01:57:19,168 –> 01:57:23,161
Because I am guilty
of organising the deportations.

1706
01:57:23,806 –> 01:57:25,501
Remorse changes nothing,

1707
01:57:25,874 –> 01:57:27,603
it won’t bring anyone back to life.

1708
01:57:27,977 –> 01:57:29,308
Remorse is pointless.

1709
01:57:29,979 –> 01:57:31,776
Remorse is for little children.

1710
01:57:33,015 –> 01:57:35,415
What is more important
is to find a way

1711
01:57:35,684 –> 01:57:38,118
to prevent these things
happening in future.

1712
01:57:38,821 –> 01:57:42,655
And I intend to request permission,

1713
01:57:42,958 –> 01:57:45,324
after the trial is over,

1714
01:57:45,494 –> 01:57:49,362
to treat these matters
in the form of a book,

1715
01:57:49,865 –> 01:57:52,129
quite openly.

1716
01:57:52,401 –> 01:57:55,768
There I am prepared
to call a spade a spade,

1717
01:57:56,038 –> 01:58:00,031
as a warning
to present and future generations.

1718
01:58:00,376 –> 01:58:01,968
One moment, Mr. Hausner.

1719
01:58:02,378 –> 01:58:04,346
I wish to address the accused.

1720
01:58:05,080 –> 01:58:08,572
You must understand
that it is your duty

1721
01:58:09,018 –> 01:58:12,078
to say everything you would write

1722
01:58:12,388 –> 01:58:15,880
in this book
you have just mentioned.

1723
01:58:19,495 –> 01:58:21,986
Since you have asked me,
your Honour,

1724
01:58:22,331 –> 01:58:25,789
to give a clear answer,

1725
01:58:26,068 –> 01:58:27,626
I must state

1726
01:58:27,903 –> 01:58:33,364
that I consider this murder,
the extermination of the Jews,

1727
01:58:33,642 –> 01:58:35,906
to be one of the greatest crimes

1728
01:58:36,211 –> 01:58:38,236
in the history of mankind.

1729
01:58:38,914 –> 01:58:40,643
In conclusion, I would like to state

1730
01:58:40,916 –> 01:58:45,114
that even at that time,
I personally thought

1731
01:58:45,354 –> 01:58:46,582
that this violent solution

1732
01:58:46,855 –> 01:58:49,255
was not justified.

1733
01:58:49,858 –> 01:58:52,691
…was not justified.

1734
01:58:53,128 –> 01:58:57,258
Even at that time, I considered it
to be a monstrous act.

1735
01:58:57,566 –> 01:59:01,798
I was unfortunately bound
by my oath of allegiance,

1736
01:59:02,071 –> 01:59:03,436
and my work

1737
01:59:03,972 –> 01:59:06,941
entailed the organisation
of the transports.

1738
01:59:07,276 –> 01:59:11,440
And I could not be released
from my oath.

1739
01:59:12,281 –> 01:59:16,081
I do not feel responsible
before my own inner being.

1740
01:59:16,685 –> 01:59:19,654
I felt free of guilt.

1741
01:59:20,289 –> 01:59:21,950
I was very relieved

1742
01:59:22,658 –> 01:59:26,094
that I had nothing to do
with the physical extermination,

1743
01:59:26,328 –> 01:59:27,420
that I had nothing to do.

1744
01:59:27,596 –> 01:59:29,223
The work I was ordered to do

1745
01:59:29,498 –> 01:59:32,058
was plenty enough for me.

1746
01:59:33,902 –> 01:59:36,735
I was suited to the work
in the section,

1747
01:59:37,172 –> 01:59:41,472
I did my duty
in accordance with my orders.

1748
01:59:41,810 –> 01:59:44,176
And I was never reprimanded

1749
01:59:45,481 –> 01:59:47,676
for not having fulfilled my duty.

1750
01:59:48,016 –> 01:59:50,280
…for not having fulfilled my duty.

1751
01:59:50,586 –> 01:59:52,645
I still stand by that today.

 

9999
00:00:0,500 –> 00:00:2,00
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This entry was published on 2013/11/22 at 05:08. It’s filed under 岛主抄书 and tagged , , , . Bookmark the permalink. Follow any comments here with the RSS feed for this post.

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